Matching body/neck codes misinformation?

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Do body/neck codes have to match?

  • Yep, to be all original

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • By no means

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Don?t know

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

felixcatus

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I did a search about the Fender models neck/body codes and I found a lot of posts on the forum
There seem to be two opposite sides of opinions . One side says the codes have to match for the guitar to be all original, the others say it doesn?t matter whether the codes match or not.

I?m not trying to find the answer to what the codes exactly mean. There?s been debated plenty over this, and I?m not sure we?ll ever find an answer to that question.
Although some have claimed to know or promised to post the definitive answer, but never posted a follow up. :D

I also would like to know from both sides what your arguments, opinions or facts are, for stating the one or the other.
 
The temptation in Japan, where Tokai spare necks and parts are common,
is for owners to swap parts to make their Teles + Strats more period correct or comfortable to play.
Very few are concerned with returning the guitar to original spec again prior to resale.

Members who don't know their guitar's entire history,
and have guitars with mismatched neck + pickup/neck pocket stampings,
shouldn't participate in the poll, if you're hoping for meaningful poll results.

I would love to hear someone say "yeah I bought it new and neck/body numbers are different,
but the reality is: necks get changed for a lot of reasons and very few of us know their guitar's entire histories.

The same holds true to a lesser extent for neck plates without supporting warranty cards,
unless you have found an identical example with the same serial number format.
 
Interesting thread, Felix,
most of you guys know my stand about the codes. 1st number is month as I haven't come across one higher than 12 and 2nd number is most likely day but the production run argument does hold merit.
I have seen a double second number [ 8=3&4] with a body [8=3] indicating the neck had to be applied on the following day...maybe. I would still consider this a matched set.
Fender history is a little different as the numbers were written in pencil at various locations on the body. All the bodies are the same as are the necks so composite strats aren't really a step away. Eric Claptons "Blackie" was in fact a composite of 3 or 4 different '57 Strats - and still sold for over $1,000,000.
With Tokai though, taking an ST-80 neck and putting it on an ST45 body and selling it as an ST-80 to me is fraud. Tell the buyer and if they are still interested, then sell it.

Peter Mac
 
The first number could very well indicate a production month,
but I don't recall seeing a number on the right side higher than 15 ?
 
Reborn Old said:
The first number could very well indicate a production month,
but I don't recall seeing a number on the right side higher than 15 ?

My Breezy neck code: 5=16 A
body code: 6=14J BL. A
 
Is there a 6=14 or 5=16 stamped in the neck pickup route or neck pocket by any chance ? What year is it ?

Here is a random sampling of 24 numbers used on the right of the equal sign:
2,3,6,6,6,6,6,7,7,7,9,10,11,11,12,12,12,12,13,13,13,15,15,15
10 numbers were used in this sampling.
Run or employee numbers might have been more useful but would be harder to prove.

I just found a 4=25 Breezy, but so few examples appear on the high side of 16.
 
Reborn Old said:
Is there a 6=14 or 5=16 stamped in the neck pickup route or neck pocket by any chance ? What year is it ?

1980.
Body code (6=14J BL. A) is in the neck pickup cavity, no codes in the neck pocket or control cavity.
 
I'll dismantle my 1987 Goldie later today and feed back.

I'm a worker/player and view these as tools so replacing parts would not bother me. If it is a good instrument with good parts its always going to have a value in the player market.

Oh and I bought it new in 1987. It has a 6 figure serial number, that I also wrote into the tremolo cavity in 1987 as I was travelling with it a lot through Europe then.
 
Reborn Old said:
Members who don't know their guitar's entire history,
...
shouldn't participate in the poll, if you're hoping for meaningful poll results.

This. If and only if someone has owned a guitar from brand new should you take their input as truth. Everything else is wishful thinking, noise not signal.

We all like to think that our bought-used Tokais are original, but we just can't say for sure. Back when Tokais were just good and affordable St/Te copies, no-one thought twice about swapping things around.

And for the last 10+ years people have been swapping Tokai bits around to recreate a convincing guitar (often to sell). And they pick and choose bits to meet the specs shown in the original catalogues. So the codes on these 'bitsacasters' will be all over the place (assuming the codes of the originals did have some systematic numbering system).
 
+1

Mine is now officially a bitsocaster though I have owned it since new. Parts were replaced when they wore out. Only the pups were changed as I felt they were lacking for me and the style I played in. I've always had interest from other players wanting to buy it should I ever want to sell and usually for a lot more than I paid for it.
The neck, body, scratchplate( knobs + covers) and selector switch are original - the rest -whatever I could get to keep it functioning :D
 




Thought this interesting as it shows the fading on the neck of a well used 26 year old guitar.




apologies for size.
 
My 1978 ST-85 has codes that are 1 day out - I consider this original because the body and neck both appear to be nitro, and if they were swapped, it would be almost inconceivable to swap it for a neck which is a day out.

Logically to me, this guitar is original.

Furthermore, I have discovered that:

1. The very early ST's (1977 and early 1978) have a narrow neck plate and the screw holes are therefore positioned differently (we all already know this). Therefore the necks would not be (without evidence of re-drilling/plugging) interchangeable.

2. The later 1978 and pre 1982 models have the standard size larger neck plate, BUT (and this I didn't know before) the hole positions are closer to the centre of the plate and are not (without evidence of re-drilling/plugging) interchangeable with earlier/later models.

This narrows down the criteria of potential neck interchangeability.
 
I have seen a double second number [ 8=3&4] with a body [8=3] indicating the neck had to be applied on the following day...maybe. I would still consider this a matched set.

Peter, is this my ST100?

My 1978 ST-85 has codes that are 1 day out - I consider this original because the body and neck both appear to be nitro, and if they were swapped, it would be almost inconceivable to swap it for a neck which is a day out.

Good point Suki.



 
i would say the codes should match, within a couple of days, to be the genuine article. say for instance the body was finished on a friday afternoon,
but the neck was
not fitted till the monday, the numbers could be up to 3 days out, (do the japanese take weekends off?).
the numbers must surely relate to days and months, production lines?-no,
employee number?-no.
how long does it take to produce a neck compared to a body.
were a large amount of necks and bodies produced at the beginning of the month, then assembled towards the end of the month, hence not too many codes above 15?
 
my st100 codes:

P1040335_zps381c4db9.jpg


P1040331_zpsb9fddaf3.jpg



mismatched... but i have absolutely no evidence of not originals...

this is my sold st50

P1040236_zpscd10a4f2.jpg


P1040233_zpsab413f9c.jpg


little mismatching but all original too
 
felixcatus said:
at what point in the assembly or production process are the codes added?
I would think necks + bodies were pre-shaped + fitted later,
so at a QC stage between initial body routing/shaping and finish/assembly stages, I would think,
based on finishes being over top of stampings.
Necks + bodies would probably be placed in alignment jig + final fitted,
necks stamped along with corresponding bodies.

I found an S-45 stamp in the pickup cavity of a 1990 LS model,
with TLS-55 model number in the other pickup cavity.
Other 1990's LP stampings were S-3, S-8
 
Peter Mac said:
With Tokai though, taking an ST-80 neck and putting it on an ST45 body and selling it as an ST-80 to me is fraud. Tell the buyer and if they are still interested, then sell it.

Peter Mac
I agree, and you got me thinking.

Let?s take my Breezy as an example:
1980 TE80 ? nitro body and neck ? one piece body ? ?A? stamped body and neck ? 80 stamp on the last fret on the fretboard ? spaghetti logo ? codes don?t match.

Ok, let?s pressume that the codes have to match for the guitar to be original. With the above described specs, I?m pretty sure the body and neck are from a 1980 - TE80. So if the body or neck was changed at some point it won?t be original. But I can still call it a genuine 1980 - TE80, or am I seeing this wrong?
And if I think one step ahead. Isn?t it more likely that the codes just don?t have to match? What are the odds of finding a time period correct neck, if it was swapped at a later date? Considering that they stopped adding the 80 stamp on the fretboard somewhere in early 1980 (at least that is what I have read here on the forum).

To be clear, no big deal when my guitar turns out to be a ?partscaster?. It does what its supposed to do, its my main go to device and fine as is.
But it may be more important to people who inquire and check for authenticity for a possible future purchase .
So are we giving the correct information or conveying the wrong message here? Because a lot of recent posts are focused on matching codes.

PS I?m not criticizing or correcting other point of views.
Its just my 2 brain cells colliding, man that hurts. :D
 
Hi Felix,
I would like to know what the 2 codes are for them to be mismatched on the TE-80.
Her are some simple things to check...
Fingerboard - Maple ('52) or Rosewood ('64)
Scratchplate : (M = 5 screw single ply) or (R = 8 screw multi ply)
Logo placement (M= between nut and round string tree) or (R = between square string tree and end of headstock)
Also as the spacing of the neck plate differs from 82-up and pre-79 so if the neck was replaced, it could only have been one made between 1980 and 1981 unless there are a second lot of screw holes.

Peter Mac
 

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