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Matching body/neck codes misinformation?
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Do body/neck codes have to match?
Yep, to be all original
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
By no means
55%
 55%  [ 11 ]
Don?t know
25%
 25%  [ 5 ]
Don't care
15%
 15%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 20

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felixcatus
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ivansc wrote:


The general consensus on here is that it is a 1980 (year I bought it new) ST-80 Springy.


Since you bought it new, it would be very interesting to see the body/neck codes.
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Russian Vadim
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting thread. I wonder what would be the consensus on what looks to be a '78 ST-50 that has an A pickguard with E-stamped pickups (my friend from Moscow also has a ST-45 with E-stamped pickups). The codes really don't match here.




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jacco
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting Vadim!

8=55.. there goes the date theory

Pickguard could have changed, did you check neck and body for nitro?
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bluesyrat
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

8=55

Yeah Jacco. The date theory goes away...



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Russian Vadim
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacco wrote:
Thanks for posting Vadim!

8=55.. there goes the date theory

Pickguard could have changed, did you check neck and body for nitro?


I have not, jacco. I can't really as it is not in my possession. I'm thinking it's a parts-Springy. However if so the screw spacing is narrower (just like you would find on 78 Springys) than on later Springys. And there are no extra holes. So the neck must be original to the body.
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J.E.M.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacco wrote:
Thanks for posting Vadim!

8=55.. there goes the date theory


Oh that hurts, where to now?
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Peter Mac
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys,

This is a 1978 partsocaster - neck looks genuine (stamp 10=10 and TR are original) and plate is type 2 wide plate. Up to ser# 8002000 they were type 1 narrow plate with no ser# and this ser# is 80030xx. Type 2.
So this plate could be used with M78 to L81 body.
No ST-50 ever had 'E' pickups or A-scrathplate - these have been added. Also it has been re-soldered [pu ground to pot instead of plate] and orange cap is not original. Probably sounds better though.
Body : this is tough as there are no complete photos of the body itself. the stamp in the middle pu cavity is a rarity for Springy (but not for Silverstar) usually it's front cavity or control cavity but not neccesarily always.
I would like to see complete body shot and close up of neck pocket and control cavity before speculating.
In terms of dating, the only thing I can see that's changed is nothing.
Body still needs to be determined if it is indeed Tokai and not a Greco, Fernandes or other. 1st number on both neck and body are under 12 so month is not affected in the theory and '55' could be a model number used by another manufacturer.
In all the thousands of Tokais I have logged and Jacco and others have also logged similar, this is the first time in over 30 years I have seen a 2nd number higher than 30.

Makes one think, yeah. . . . . So lets go guys, tear it apart.

Peter Mac
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Suki
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's not panic guys.

In 30 years, Peter says this is the only instance of a date greater than 30. It is not incomprehensible that a newbie in the Tokai factory didn't set the stamp correctly.

All the other evidence confirms the theory that the stamps are dates. If the stamps did not indicate date, then it would be highly unlikely that we wouldn't have seen any other number between 32 and 99 by now. The law of averages means that it is actually more (actually twice) as likely that numbers between 32 and 99 wold have been used than 1 to 31, assuming of course these were either random or sequential codes.


A sensible and plausible view to take may be:

1. The stamps are for dates, but sometimes they got this wrong. When I say "sometimes" I mean "once". In 30 years!

2. The neck and body codes should match, and help to confirm the body belongs to the neck. This is the norm.

3. If the neck and body codes do not match, or if a little out, this does NOT mean the guitar isn't completely original. It is not inconceivable the necks and bodies for the same guitar could be stamped on different days and assembled later. But we could accept that this would be the exception, rather than the norm.


[/u][/i]
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jacco
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have another explanation;

I have been logging 1977-1981 Tokai's for the past 4 years.
I have logged 1.6% of the total production during this period.
49,8% of the logs are Fender models.
So I have also logged around 1,6% of the Tokai Fender production. These were the models with the 'date code' stamps.
From my experience around 1 in every 25 logged have pictures and/or mentioning of both body and neck 'date code' stamps. That's 4% of the 1,6%.
So in total only 0,06% of the total Tokai Fender production.

Although Peter has a long histrory and experience with Tokai's. He started logging in january 2008. So he's been on it for 2 years longer than I have.
So he will probably have logged 0,1% body and neck stamp combinations of the total Tokai Fender model production.

Now tell me how much validity does that have?

PS My logs were originally more focussed on Tokai Gisbon models. I know Peter's were more focussed on Tokai Fender models, so slight shifts in the above mentioned data would be logical, but you get the idea.
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Suki
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="jacco"]

Now tell me how much validity does that have?

To use statistical terminology, if the individual samples were random enough (we can assume they are; they were not a single batch produced), this is regarded as "sample data". All statisticians would agree that even a 1% data sample is accurately representative of the whole.
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felixcatus
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prior to starting this thread I did a search on the codes. I thought it could be interesting to bundle these comments in regard to this subject.

Quote summary:

Pro matching codes:

-?The number on the body (either control cavity or neck pickup cavity) should match the neck butt number- if they don't match they are from 2 seperate fiddles.?

-?On all of the early eighties Goldstars I have had taken apart and photo'd ALL of the original Tokai Goldstar Neck butts and bodies have matching marks- ie:
Neck Butt #always matches either the Neck P-up Cavity # or the Control Cavity #?

-?I'd say that they are not a matching neck/body.?

-?But if the numbers don't match in the control cavity and on the neck but - I'd say not original?

-?I'd say if it's a Early eighties GoldStar Sound and the numbers on the Neck Butt and the control Cavity don't match-it's not original-anyone that says it's not uncommon for a mismatch on Goldstar Sounds are delusional?
(ANSWER: ?So on what evidence do you base your claim that if the numbers on the Neck Butt and the control Cavity don't match-it's not original-anyone that says it's not uncommon for a mismatch on Goldstar Sounds are delusional? Can you point us to any evidence to back up this assertion?
Remember, this is the guy who insisted that he wanted to buy a Springy, but only if it had the model number stamped into the fretboard (1978 or 79) and also with FINAL PROSPEC saddles (post 1981).?)

-?My own theory is that it's possibly a mongrel, hence the neckplate, the mismatched body and neck codes?

-?check if the neck and body codes match. It could be a replacement neck on A St50 body but until we get the codes we are only guessing?

-?I believe that they tell you that the neck has been replaced - or the body, depending on which way you look at it.
The number = number on the neck and body should match.?


Con matching codes:

-?For me definitively not! These are production codes and not matching codes.
I got that info from the president of Tokai. I posted that fact in several postings before...?

-?In the past I was meaning that would be matching codes. To match and fit the correct neck into the neck pocket of the body. I met two month ago the president of Tokai. I told him my meaning. He was laughing and said: "Oh no, instead of Fender ... our tool machines were working very correct in the eighties. There were no need to use match codes"

-"Our tooling and output is consistent enough that we don't need to match codes" - ie. you don't have to pick a body + neck from the same production run in order for the parts to fit (unlike Fender did!).?

-?I don't believe it's a bad thing if the codes don't match. It's the rule.
Out of all the Tokais I own (or owned) only one (a 1984 TE50) has matching codes (9=9).?

-?I am virtually certain that my black Goldstar is totally original, it even has the 50 and MADE IN JAPAN stickers on the back of the neck. It only has a body code of 18BB, so there is no way that the neck code of 4-27 could match that. I also have a white Goldstar, & the neck and body codes of 5=12 match up. However it has what looks like it might be a replaced decal, so is less likely to be all original than the black one.?

-?Even with old Fenders, it's not uncommon to find necks and bodies that are several months apart - Strats were assembled on a production line basis - necks and bodies from different production runs were paired up and bolted together. It seems reasonable to assume that this happened with Springys & Goldies too.?


-?They aren't date codes, & they often don't match, so that doesn't help?

-?I thought it was accepted that these were not date codes, i have seen 7=0 on a springy, so what month or day is 0??

-?why have you suddenly suggested that these codes are date codes, after months, maybe years of posts where it has been generally agreed that they are NOT date codes??

-?I own two springys, St 80 and 100, neck body numbers do not match, but they are original..?

-?Don't worry if the neck & body codes don't match - they often don't.?

-Neck 4=10 ? body 4=8, the guy who e-mailed me from Tokai, Adachi san , told me the 4 is the month and the 8 is a production schedule number. (I asked Tokai about the numbers stamped in the neck pocket and pick-up cavities and was told they are internal codes no relation to production dates.)

-?The body and neck codes DO NOT have to match.
Mismatches are so common it would've been an industry in itself just swapping the parts around?

PS all comments can be found on this forum (should anyone find it inappropriate that I?ve posted these quotes, let me know your reason and I will delete this post).
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jacco
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My findings;
1. Higher end models have more chance of having matching codes.
2. Older models have more chance of having matching codes.
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Barks67
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about owners who have owned from new and have absolute confidence in the providence?
Mine is a middle model from 1987 that has matching codes.
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jacco
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacco wrote:


Now tell me how much validity does that have?

To use statistical terminology, if the individual samples were random enough (we can assume they are; they were not a single batch produced), this is regarded as "sample data". All statisticians would agree that even a 1% data sample is accurately representative of the whole.


Thanks Suki, it's been a while since statistics lessons

On the other hand, another fellow forum member and logger Reborn Old, did say earlier this year that after a few years of logging he never had seen a code with a number higher than 15 as second digit and therefore didn't think it was a date code.
This is my 3rd log with a second digit higher than 31.
So yeah, 3 loggers with 3 different samples and therefore 3 different conclusions.
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Peter Mac
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good stuff, guys

OK, so out of this I take it we are now all in agreement of 2 things,
1) First digit of stamp is Month.
2) we are inconclusive still about 2nd number.

Back to Vadims guitar, we agree it is a partsocaster?

With the code stamps, I noticed that those models with coloured headstocks had a further mark on the neck butt. If body had -for example - 10=6 SO Z the neck butt, instead of just 10=6 had 10=6 SOH or MBH if body colour was MB.
Now did every coloured headstock have a colour code on the neck butt or was it only used for a short period?

Peter Mac
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