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ST85? Really?
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marcusnieman
Guitar God


Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 8764
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter, your book is one of the finest I've ever seen - full of information, pictures and history on the brand. I certainly hope you didn't take offense to my comment above .... I was just trying to add some clarification to the double stamp in the neck pocket.
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ampmaker
Guitar God


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 113
Location: Cambridge, England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter Mac wrote:

ampmaker : please consider that Tokai may have started new numbering each year (ONLY a theory) for the first 3 years, I am quite sure that if they were sequential but spread out between ST and LS/LC models then by 1980, a new sequence would have begun once they hit the 10,000 mark.


I stopped looking and recording about 8yrs ago. (I remember Andrew, I bought at least one guitar through him.) The complete list of early serial numbers I recorded was:
8000316
8000349
8001443
8001634
8001840
8001946
9002203
9002348
9004497
9006967
9008977
0005475
0006760
0008147
0008912
0008992

0009554
0009655
0009903
0009903
0010245
0010754
0011173
0012658
0013024
0014106
1010523
1011071
1011104
1011954
1012970
1013391
1013587
1013659
1013871
1014602
1014917
1015109
1015698
1016323
1016958
1017084
1017828
1018834
1022403
1024095
1024659

So '78 and '79 here show no overlap, and things went a bit odd in '80 (overlap shown in bold). In fact, the almost complete lack of later year codes with very low serial number is what leads me to believe that Tokai at least tried for a couple of years to have a consecutive numbering scheme. Perhaps, as they made more and more guitars, the numbering and production process got out of sync? (shrug)

Within my numbers may be fakes (a little less likely back then), swapped Freplica neck plates and/or some confusion over other Japanese brands. I just didn't record the finer details that you guys have done.

If I check the difference between the lowest and highest serial numbers for each of the first few years, I get a very rough (i.e. under estimate) idea of production numbers:

1978 = 1630
1979 = 6774
1980 = 8631
1981 = 14136
1982 = 15868
1983 = 22550
1984 = 26287
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jacco
Guitar God


Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Posts: 2871
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ampmaker, those are a mix of all Tokai models, right?

@Peter in 1978, 1979 & 1980 they did start at zero for sure



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ampmaker
Guitar God


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 113
Location: Cambridge, England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacco - yes, all models. If I didn't have a day job, I could separate out by Gibson/Fender style!
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jacco
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Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Posts: 2871
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol, well I have them separated
Was curious if you had them specified, so which model belongs to which serial number.
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Suki
Guitar God


Joined: 22 Feb 2013
Posts: 319
Location: London, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys,

To bring the thread a little more back on track, I now have the ST-85 in the original post here with me, and here are my initial findings...

1. Tokai saddles - in excellent condition (obviously a player who doesn't sweat on the bridge)
2. Tokai tuners
3. E pickups
4. Neck and body numbers out by one day. I have never seen this, and both parts seem nitro. Very odd, but credible that this may be how it left the factory. Interestingly, the neck heel also says "ST-100", whereas the fingerboard is also stamped ST-85. Are these irregularities anything to do with the early days of the production line,, or do I have a partscaster? Or anything even more sinister? lol
5. Tokai logo scratched off down to bare wood. This headstock will need to be taken down to bare wood, nitro applied, decal applied and re-lacquered.
6. Insides look pristine. evidence of lacquer fade on body that are not present underneath the pickguard. Body looks one-piece.

Pics below. Any thoughts?

http://s1356.photobucket.com/user/sb-1969/library/ST-85%20springy%201978
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jacco
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Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Posts: 2871
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't see the ST-100 in the pics?
ST-80 stamp on the body = meant to be an ST-80. The natural version of the the ST-80 was a 5000 yen upgrade thus they decided for it to become a ST-85. Fretboard stamp was on of the last things applied so that is the main identifier for the model type.
I have seen a 1979 LS-80 (fretboard stamp) with LS-100 body stamp.
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Suki
Guitar God


Joined: 22 Feb 2013
Posts: 319
Location: London, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Jacco, the ST-100 is in handwriting on the neck heel by the date stamp
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jacco
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Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Posts: 2871
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! I didn't see ST-100 in that, still don't. But you can see it irl up close.
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bluesyrat
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Posts: 395
Location: Latina, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.I was reading 87100...but the interesting thing is the one piece body. This guitar seems to have all the st100 features but the gold hardware...
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Suki
Guitar God


Joined: 22 Feb 2013
Posts: 319
Location: London, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On closer inspection it's a two piece body - the join is almost undetectable unless you look inside the pickup cavities.

I reckon the neck was originally intended to go on an ST-100, but got put on an ST-85 the day after, when it was stamped 85 on the fretboard. That's the only plausible answer for the ST-100 handwriting on the neck and the markings on neck and body being one day out.

I have to say it's a lovely guitar, absolutely stunning. A bargain!
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Suki
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Joined: 22 Feb 2013
Posts: 319
Location: London, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm taking some pics during the cleanup and setup, and the reinstatement of the spaghetti logo...

The nickel plating was worn or scratched off in many places. Just a quick polish up to remove the worst, but to keep the aged look. Before and after on the left and right:



The headstock was in pretty poor condition. The spaghetti logo wasn't delicately scratched off. The marks were a lot deeper than necessary and went well into the wood:


Sanding the nitro off the headstock with wet & dry 240, 400, then 600 grit:


Sanded and dry, ready for a thin coat of amber nitro first:


This is about as close as I can get to the correct colour. I'll let natural nitro ageing do the rest:
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Suki
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Joined: 22 Feb 2013
Posts: 319
Location: London, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Applying the decal:



Properly positioned now:

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marcusnieman
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Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 8764
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work... looks good. Quarter sawn wood?
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Suki
Guitar God


Joined: 22 Feb 2013
Posts: 319
Location: London, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks - not sure about the cut - any grain experts out there?
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