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Looking for some help Identifying this Tokai guitar
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Barks67
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Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 271
Location: Leeds UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again.
Thought it best to describe the TRC here.

It is not beveled (smooth) at the edge but is "stepped" between the laminates.

Is that similar to the ones on the Reborns?

I also notice that its serial is somewhat lower than the OP.
Mine ends 31058 and the OPs is 31703, so maybe there were left overs from the older specs when mine was manufactured.

I must admit I have no idea how the Tokai numbering scheme works after the year date number.

its interesting that we have two guitars here from the same year, both from UK but different headstock and TRC, and I am utterly convinced mine has original TRC and one piece mahogany body as opposed to two piece.

Also do the screw points match up between the two types of TRC as there are no signs of new holes here?

I guess next stop is look in the pup cavity for markings.

cheers

barks
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Reborn Old
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barks67 wrote:


I guess next stop is look in the pup cavity for markings.
barks

You might find "CS" in magic marker in your neck pickup cavity for the finish type. CS= cherry sunburst
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Barks67
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Joined: 01 Jan 2011
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Location: Leeds UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reborn Old wrote:
Barks67 wrote:


I guess next stop is look in the pup cavity for markings.
barks

You might find "CS" in magic marker in your neck pickup cavity for the finish type. CS= cherry sunburst


Nothing in there.

The tenon joint is about an inch long from the end of the fretboard is all I could see of interest.
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Reborn Old
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes the color code gets routed away to fit deeper '57 PAF pickups. There is a black and gold 57'PAF sticker on the back of the pickups if that's what you have....or marking was done only by certain techs.
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Barks67
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Joined: 01 Jan 2011
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Location: Leeds UK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the illuminating search!

The pickups in mine where replaced with SD vintage pafs when I bought it, so I have no recollection of what the originals had on them.

I think I swapped them for an old valve copicat at the time.

So it seems I have an early 1985 LS50 with a two piece plain maple top (though it does have some lovely figuring that catches the light differently every time!) and a one piece mahogany back and non export headstock (no dimple) and bell trc.

cheers

barks
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Barks67
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Joined: 01 Jan 2011
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Location: Leeds UK

PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barks67 wrote:
Reborn Old wrote:
Good points made above. Most LS-80's and some LS-60's were flame tops beginning in 1984. The Bell TRC is not original to 1985 models, might be from a reborn like the tuners..


Interesting as I never replaced the TRC, and the shop had the guitar in its stock unsold for a number of years.
Why would they just change that part?
The catalogue link posted by Dave above seems to show the 1985 models with Bell TRC's.

I've also already mentioned that I changed the tuners - and still have 5 of the originals.

barks


When clearing out old drawers and boxes, I found the old tuners AND the exploded one - the back pinged off suddenly during a gig. This was around 94-95 or so and the replacements were the Schallers. I actually did not notice that these were single rings etc, just glad to have the guitar back working.

Anybody have this issue before?

It's the little "nibs" that hold the assembly together that failed, as if there was not quite enough metal to bend over onto the backplate when it was made.

I also changed the Strat's tuners at the same time as I noticed one of them was a little loose too.

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stevesemaphore
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Joined: 06 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:18 am    Post subject: those '85's Reply with quote

The debate over model id's of 85's seems to run and run. It would seem that there a lot of Love rock's from that year with specs that vary from what we expect. I always thought that the clearest identification spec of LS80's and above was the neck break angle (18 degrees) and possibly the pick ups. The LS80 has Tokai PAF 57's. However there are a number of guitars that have these feature but don't have FEB (I'm talking about 1985 specifically) and a couple I have seen that have plain tops. Just for the record here is my 1985. There are discussions as to whether this is a 50 60 or 80. It has a plain top the finish is old sunburst it has a one piece back (probably.... another thing that is notoriously difficult to identify). Tokai uncovered zebra PAF 57's and a 18 degree headstock. I've never bothered to test for nitro...it has a very very thin laquer that I will test one day. Still it feels much more like other 80's that I have played rather than the one 50 I have had in my hands. Oh it's a UK model with dimple just to add confusion and it didn't have a bell trc although it does now, I still have the original. Hope I'm not talking rubbish


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Barks67
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's interesting Steve.

As I've never attempted it before, I decided to try and measure the headstock angle - as mine looks identical to yours with regards rake angle.

I was surprised to find it is also 18 degree's like yours.





So the specs for my 1985 LS seem to be:
Two piece plain (slightly flamed) maple top
A definite one piece mahogany body - check the pics in the earlier posts above, especially the end body angled grain
Non dimple headstock and original bell TRC and no FEB
18 degree headstock - well definitely not 14 degrees.
Poly, NOT nitro, but it is definitely quite thin on the front

I cannot remember the markings on the original pups but they were exposed cream types - I have replaced the tuners.

It does seem that it went a bit odd this year.
Maybe there were some asembled body- neck units that at the last minute were deemed not quite up to the scratch for LS80 - so they downgraded a few bits and slapped on the 50-60 sticker instead?
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jacco
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Joined: 25 Feb 2010
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Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:09 am    Post subject: Re: those '85's Reply with quote

stevesemaphore wrote:
The debate over model id's of 85's seems to run and run. It would seem that there a lot of Love rock's from that year with specs that vary from what we expect. I always thought that the clearest identification spec of LS80's and above was the neck break angle (18 degrees) and possibly the pick ups. The LS80 has Tokai PAF 57's. However there are a number of guitars that have these feature but don't have FEB (I'm talking about 1985 specifically) and a couple I have seen that have plain tops. Just for the record here is my 1985. There are discussions as to whether this is a 50 60 or 80. It has a plain top the finish is old sunburst it has a one piece back (probably.... another thing that is notoriously difficult to identify). Tokai uncovered zebra PAF 57's and a 18 degree headstock. I've never bothered to test for nitro...it has a very very thin laquer that I will test one day. Still it feels much more like other 80's that I have played rather than the one 50 I have had in my hands. Oh it's a UK model with dimple just to add confusion and it didn't have a bell trc although it does now, I still have the original. Hope I'm not talking rubbish


To add to the knowledge it would be great if you could check for nitro.
If you do I would use lacquer thinner in stead of acetone. The early Tokai examples whipe off pretty easy with acetone but the later ones I have heard different stories about.

Is there anyone here who knows when Tokai went from a 14 degree to an 18 degree heastcok angle on the lower end models?

Barks67 wrote:

Non dimple headstock and original bell TRC and no FEB


Why again do you think the bell TRC is original?
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Barks67
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry Jacco but I thought I had mentioned that a page back and there was no further response or discussion except a small mention form Reborn Old?

Quote:
Interesting as I never replaced the TRC, and the shop had the guitar in its stock unsold for a number of years.
Why would they just change that part?
The catalogue link posted by Dave above seems to show the 1985 models with Bell TRC's.


Quote:
Possibly for some UK Love Rocks shipped with bell TRCs, but open book Japan models had pointed TRCs for the most part, as does Brandei's UK 1985 LS model in the first post..


It is original in that I never changed it and bought the guitar new in 1990 - NOS - and it is of course possible the shop replaced it to make it attractive to sell.
It appears that there are enough anomalies and confusion around some 1985 made guitars that anything seems possible.
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jacco
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yeah, I see.
Very much doubt if the TRC is original.
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Barks67
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough.

One thing, the TRC is not beveled but stepped laminate.
If the Tokai Bell TRC's from the Reborn are not like this it will help discount confusion.
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MartinW
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Joined: 14 Oct 2011
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Location: Derbyshire, UK

PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My '85 has a bell shaped TRC.
It too is an oddball, having the following spec:
2 piece plain top
1 piece back
Poly finish
Bell TRC and open-book headstock
Fret edge binding
Open zebra pickups with a brass-coloured baseplate (not sure what these are?)
No markings at all anywhere on the guitar

So, my guess would be an LS50 or 60 that happens to have a slightly higher spec here and ther (FEB and 1 piece back.)

Whatever, it's nice and light, resonates beautifully, and is the best LP I've ever played.
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jacco
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the headstock angle?
Pics?

PS Your amps look good!
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Barks67
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes your amps look great and you are not too far from me...hmmm!

Looking at my picture above, would it be agreed that it is 18 degrees?

cheers

Barks
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