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Stratmann
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Joined: 22 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject: What is this? Reply with quote

Hi everybody,
I questioned this already but I thought I open up another post, because now I have detailed oics and it will roll up the discussion from another point of view.

That's what I know so far. It is a 2 piece body glued together very well. Allmost not visible. I did the acetobe test. After rubbing a while the laquer dissolved so it should be nitro? It didn't disolve right away but it did. The whole guitar is very light. Abaout 3,2 to 3,3 kg.

Thre is a hole under the pick guard what could be a nail hole or a screw hole. Not sure. No stamp in the routing cavity.

The neck has a stamp like old Fender have. The decal was added later the seller stated. The string tree spacer is metal. The truss rod nut don't look like original old Fender. The tuners look exactly the same as on my Springy.

The vaneer board is thinner than on my Springy or Goldie. The frets might be changed because they are bigger than on my other Tokais.

The pickguard is changed totally I think. There is nothing what points to a Tokai.

The big question mark is: What does the stamp on the neck end say to us? It looks original, not applied later. I don't belive that it is a origanal Fender. But what other brand used to put a stamp on the neck using the same code like Fender?

The neck profile is a little flatter than on my Springy or Goldie. It tends a bit more to C instead of a D.
The neck plate serial is L01XXX.

So what strange kind of guitar did I buy. Because it has good pickups and it's a nitro 2-piece body and it has a Fender case included, I think it is still a good buy but again: What is it?
















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Stratmann
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Joined: 22 Oct 2008
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Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I start guessing myself. When I check pictures of other Tokai Strats I recognize the same pickup routing in the bridge position. So maybe they just forgot the color code. I believe it is a ST80 body.

When did the Final Prospec saddles came up? And when did they disapear? Does the neck plate serial say anything about the date of manufactoring?
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BlueThird
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suspect the answer to your question ??what kind of strange guitar did I buy? ??is essentially that it's a Partocaster. At least some of the hardware is Tokai, and I'd agree that the body probably is, too, though I've got no idea whether it's actually from an ST80. If it's a Tokai neck plate, the serial number probably only tells you that it's from 1982 onwards. Think that's also when Final Prospec saddles came in, but not 100% certain on that.

Pots seem to be from at least two manufacturers, though the bridge tone pot could be from a Tokai. Is the scratch plate two or three ply?

If it were an American Fender neck I wouldn't expect it to be a good match to the body. Assuming that it is a good fit, that leaves the possibility that it's from Fender Japan (did they use that date stamp, though?) or that there's something more tricky going on.
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stratman323
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that is a puzzle? What's the prize if we get it right?

The most likely explanation is that it's a Goldstar or late Springy with a Fender decal on the neck & a fake Fender neck date stamp. But why do that & leave the Deluxe tuners? I agree with Blue Third about the serial number & saddles - 1981 or maybe 1982 onwards.

The Fender decal is a transition decal as used by Fender from about 1964 to '67 - and a Springy or Goldie would be a copy of a '64, hence the L serial number. A 2 piece body is more likely on a Tokai than on a '65 Fender. Is it possible that somebody deliberately tried to cover up the colour code in the body?

I suppose the other possibility with the neck is that it's a real '65 Strat neck fitted with Tokai tuners & re-fretted, but why would anyone put Japanese tuners on a vintage Fender?

Weird..

Mike
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stratman323
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at it again, that body looks too old to be a Tokai....
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Stratmann
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Joined: 22 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it possible that somebody deliberately tried to cover up the colour code in the body?

I can't see a hint for that. But also the neck pocket has the black color.

Quote:
Is the scratch plate two or three ply?

Three ply. I assume that the scratch plate comes from another guitar. That's usual for me when trying other pickups on a strat. I allways change the whole pickguard and change it back to original when I want to sell it as original.


Would the body originally have 8 or 11 holes?

Would the neck be nitro laquer too if it is a Tokai? I think a Fender from that time period would be nitro for sure. I didn't test it yet.
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stratman323
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A RW board Goldie or post 1980 Springy would have the same SP as the '64 Fender it copied, so 3 ply with the '64 screw spacing (11 hole). See my thread on the pink Goldstar for details of screw spacing.

A pre 1980 Springy would have an 8 hole single ply SP regardless of whether it was maple or RW.

An ST80 or above would be nitro finished, body & neck. Fender switched from nitro to poly around '67, after the bigger headstock had been introduced late '65, early '66 (from memory).
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MIJvintage
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks like a 2 pc. center seam body ...................... and that refret is terrible ; high frets here & there .................

looks like >90% Tokai to my eyes, with the exception of the elecs. ................. and the head stock log ...............

how does she play???????


I'm beginning to wonder if I should try the 'test' on my Goldstar Sound .................
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stratman323
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MIJvintage wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder if I should try the 'test' on my Goldstar Sound .................


What test? Nitro? If you mean your SB Goldstar (didn't you sell it?) I thought we had established about 2 years ago that it was a 50 or 60?
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Stratmann
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I made the test on the neck. It's nitro! Today I will level the frets because on the last two frets there is a problem. All in all it sounds quiete good. Very light weight and very resonant. Just the frets are terrible.

I think also that is is more a ST80 than something else. Just the neck is confusing me. The stamp looks very natural by a closer look. Does anybody know if the stamp is applied before the laquer or later onto the laquer?
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stratman323
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that's a fake Fender stamp on the neck, it's a good one. Why don't you send some pics of the neck (or a link to a site with the pics on) to Fender & see if you can persaude them to comment? If you ask them nicely they can sometimes be helpful.
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MIJvintage
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stratman323 wrote:
MIJvintage wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder if I should try the 'test' on my Goldstar Sound .................


What test? Nitro? If you mean your SB Goldstar (didn't you sell it?) I thought we had established about 2 years ago that it was a 50 or 60?



'test' for nitro ...... I know it's a long shot but have never tried it; always assumed it's poly, and probably is .........

No, didn't sell her ; and if I ever do, everyone on the TF has an open invitation to come over & kick my a**

what ever the finish type is, it has sunk down into the grain quite a bit.
It could actually be that the 'spring' or growing season area of some of the growth rings has experienced quite a bit of moisture loss.
You can see the end result in the below photo; just look at the light reflection/glare area on the larger horn of the 3-color on the far right .
Just to the right of a few dings, where the black & red colors interface & just left of the pick guard, where the black & red interface, you can see a bit of a shrunken look to the finish, mostly in the red color area.
Most of the front/top of the body has this weird effect, to some degree; of course it is really only visible when a light source hits it just right.
The finish is extremely thin; has a nitro look but again, it's likely poly.
Would still be interested to 'test' her one day .................


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JVsearch
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Joined: 01 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stratman323 wrote:
If that's a fake Fender stamp on the neck, it's a good one.


It's not very good at all, have a look at some of the 60s stamps I posted up on the other thread about this guitar, it doesn't look like any of them.

http://www.ksvintage.com/jimshine/index.cgi?g=36
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stratman323
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's with the pics on that link? Apparently there is a 1943 Strat....

http://www.ksvintage.com/jimshine/index.cgi?g=36&p=183

WTF?

MIJ - I know what you mean about the thin finish, my 1980 SB TE70 is the same. You can see the grain of the sen through the clear coat. I guess that's what villager refers to as "thin poly" in some of his ads.
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mirrorboy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stratman323 wrote:

You can see the grain of the sen through the clear coat. I guess that's what villager refers to as "thin poly" in some of his ads.


I think Tokai used acrylic lacquer not polyurethane in the 80's.

Poly and acrylic enamel uses thinner and a catalyst that needs to be oven-dried to harden the paint, but the acrylic lacquer uses only thinner and is air-dried.
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