LS-320 caps ?? what'ca got??

there has been some debate here between members as to what caps are in a LS-320 so, I'm wondering for those here that have a LS-320, or that have pics of the contol cavaty of a LS-320, what kind of caps do you have?

I'm looking for stock/original caps; thank you ...........

Here are two threads where the CORNELL caps come into play, which my 2000 LS-320 has :wink:

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2782

http://tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=10573&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45&sid=f957e40835b56a08fd264b9e21c047c7

2005 LS-320. Sprague "black beauty," 0.033 microfarad * 200 vt.
(Sorry, I originally typed "0.022 microfarad.." My brain thought one thing, and I typed something else. If they had be 0.022, I would not have swapped them out.)

Really chintzy wiring from the volume pots to the p/up selector. Good quality, cloth vintage wiring elsewhere - including the run to the output jack.
Somebody had an off day..

Mick51 said:

2005 LS-320. Sprague "black beauty," 0.022 microfarad * 200 vt.

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Are these reproductions? NOS?

Anyone?

Villager, Luis, Rup, buckwild, currypowder? .......................

According to the registry catalogues a 2000 LS320 has Blackcats.

Dave

DaveWW said:

According to the registry catalogues a 2000 LS320 has Blackcats.

Dave

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Thanks for the info.


Below is the LS-320 cap info I located, via the below link.

http://www.tokairegistry.com/tokai-info/tokai-catalogs.html#Cat03

1997 - Oil Condenser CDE Black Cat

1999 - Oil Condenser CDE Black Cat

2000 - Oil Condenser CAP II


One thing I have come to understand when it comes to manufacturers, and I mean manufacturers in general, and not just manufacturers of guitars, is that when a manufacturer has a supply issue they will place different branded parts in a product that have the same specification(s) as a catalog listed brand part. As long as a part meets specification(s), the manufacturer doesn?t care what supplier the part came from.

I have seen this for decades, and I see no reason to believe that it would not occur with a maker of guitars, Tokai included.

My 2000 LS-320 came to me with the CORNELL caps.
TF member Roe purchased his 2000 LS-320 from TF member Hisashi, which also has the CORNELL caps.
PHOTOS of each can be seen here:
http://tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=10573&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45&sid=f957e40835b56a08fd264b9e21c047c7
I supplied this link http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2782 where TF member tubedogsmith states, ?caps Cornell Dublier Black Cats.? There are no pics in his post, and I don?t know what year model LS-320 he is referring to.

This does however account for three LS-320 examples with owners stating that the caps are Cornell examples.

I?m attempting to gain as much knowledge on this subject, as one TF member has on more than one occasion questioned the Cornell cap issue, and I also find myself a bit confused on the whole cap issue.

Hopefully those TF members with LS-320 examples can chime in, and the cap mystery can become clearer.

ganzua said:

Are these reproductions? NOS?

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They look to be original. I have quite a few original Spragues, both "black beauty" and bumblebees, and these fit right in. I would have to eyeball them, check for mold marks and mold knockout marks on the jackets, and compare to originals to be for sure.

My 2003 LS-320 has Cornell Caps. There's nothing in the cavity that would indicate these are not the original caps that were installed in the guitar. Here are some pics of the cavity:

currypowder said:

My 2003 LS-320 has Cornell Caps. There's nothing in the cavity that would indicate these are not the original caps that were installed in the guitar. Here are some pics of the cavity:

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Greg, that is very good info; thanks so much for that! 8)


EDIT: Greg, on further observasion of your photos, and of the photo of the Hisashi/Roe LS-320 (neck pup volume pot), there is a matching pot code; 500K 9831.

The 9831 is code for 98 = 1998, and 31 = 31st week of the year, 1998.

You state your LS-320 is a 2003 model.

Here we have a 2000 & a 2003 example with the same caps, and interestingly, the same pots that so happen to be coded to the 31st week of 1998.

Since the LS-320 is such a limited manufacture, my guess is that Tokai purchased a bulk of pots (obviously from 1998), caps, and who knows what else, and these parts ended up in several different year examples of LS-320s.

Since (some of) the pots are obviously from 1998, and there are Cornell caps in a 2000 & a 2003 example, I would not be surprised to see Cornell caps in an example earlier than a 2000 LS-320 also.

This is getting very interesting. :lol:

Look at Greg's photos. That's the same "chintzy"wiring from the volume pots to the p/up selector that I was describing in my LS-320. Everything is wired very well except the run from the volume pots to the three-way switch.

It works fine, no extra noise, etc. It's just bush to do it that way, when it is so easy to wire it correctly and consistently when the wiring goes in initially. End of rant..

Mick51 said:

They look to be original. I have quite a few original Spragues, both "black beauty" and bumblebees, and these fit right in. I would have to eyeball them, check for mold marks and mold knockout marks on the jackets, and compare to originals to be for sure.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the answer

BTW, do you think capacitors affect the tone even without moving the tone pots?

Mick51 said:

Look at Greg's photos. That's the same "chintzy"wiring from the volume pots to the p/up selector that I was describing in my LS-320. Everything is wired very well except the run from the volume pots to the three-way switch.

It works fine, no extra noise, etc. It's just bush to do it that way, when it is so easy to wire it correctly and consistently when the wiring goes in initially. End of rant..

Click to expand...

Yes, the wiring is a f .. ing MESS :roll: but it all looks identicle, almost .......
There are black, white, and red plastic insulated wires, yellow clothe covered wires, and the Cornell caps are even wired backward in the Roe example, as compared to Gregs example & my example.

What a mess indeed :evil:

We do now have four LS-320 examples docuemented with the Cornell caps

My LS380

togps said:

My LS380

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the wiring looks SO MUCH nicer there

looks like they got it right 8)

Thanks for that ..................


EDIT: looks like you have one pot coded 0452 aka 52nd week of 2004

Do you have a pic of the top?

Hi, my 2005 LS320 has .033 Sprague Black Beauties, both in bridge and neck position. I'm sure they are original.

Original bumblebee cap values rised with the time as the oil dried. An original .022uf 50s cap now could have increased to .033uf or .040uf, it depends. In my opinion it is too much for a Les Paul.

I personally use reproductions that are maded with NOS russian military PIO and so far so good. These are sweet in a LP but I didn't like them in other guitars.

I don't know if it is my wiring, a 50s de-coupled mod, but since I installed them, I noticed a very subtle sweet touch in the tone even when the tone pots are not engaged, at 10 position.

Yes they are original, MCTanza, these black cats are what Tokai is using in highest end replicas,my Goldtoop have these also,will check for value.
0.033 are really unknow values but work OK to me.Have to try 0.015 also....

Regarding russian caps have toa few but not tried them still,have to take time to do it.
I did tried Orange Drop,Mallory,Mustard Caps(Bianchi-Phillips) and Hovland(like thos in a Reborn).Each cap make teh sound slightly different and can give a guitar a nice final touch if needed,but you have to listen the guitar unplugged first and plugged after....

ganzua said:

BTW, do you think capacitors affect the tone even without moving the tone pots?

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Nope. I used to think so - in fact I bought a pair of audiophile grade tone caps for my tokai (they even had silver connecting leads...) but if you think about it for a second you realise that the tone caps are there to bleed your guitar signal to ground. You never actually hear the signal that passes through them! :lol:

As long as you use decent quality caps (I wouldn't buy anything more expensive than Orange Drops) you won't hear any difference.

EDIT: you will hear a difference if you change the *capacitance value* of the tone caps, but the make and model are virtually insignificant.

But the signal that goes to jack passes through the cap even if it's not bled.

I don't know if it is a placebo effect but I swear that I can notice a slight improvement in the tone after removing the stock green cap. thing that came with the guitar.

ganzua said:

Original bumblebee cap values rised with the time as the oil dried. An original .022uf 50s cap now could have increased to .033uf or .040uf, it depends. In my opinion it is too much for a Les Paul.

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Hi, I didn't mean that my caps are original from the fifties, just that they came originally fitted with the guitar. I'm not sure if you understood that in the first place, that's why I'm clarifying :wink: .

Luis said:

Yes they are original, MCTanza, these black cats are what Tokai is using in highest end replicas,my Goldtoop have these also,will check for value.
0.033 are really unknow values but work OK to me.Have to try 0.015 also....

Click to expand...

Yes, these aren't very conventional values for a LP, let alone both in bridge and neck, but I don't have complaints against the tone. The tone pots and their rolloff work fantastic, too, so i don't feel the need to swap the caps for the more common 0.017/0.022 combo.