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'Lawsuit model' - a cautionary tale
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james
Guitar God


Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 294
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is it that nearly every old Tokai you see advertised nowadays makes this claim?! I've lost count of the number of Goldstar Sounds I've seen advertised that are supposed to be the 'fabled lawsuit model'.
I rang an ad the other day that claimed this, and even said something like 'original 70s logo' but it turned out to be a Goldstar. The guy was a dealer and he obviously didn't have a clue.
Now, I know we're all learning here, but it just goes to show how cynical some people are about using these buzzwords to pump up the price, without really knowing what they're talking about. So before you part with your hard earned, do your research here! (BTW, I'm not knocking Goldstars - I have one and its great - but they're not the rarity that some people would have you believe). OK, end of rant. Just remember people: be careful out there.

James
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ned
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Joined: 29 Aug 2001
Posts: 1154
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James,

Your absolutely right. Don't know how many angled headstock models I've seen on eBay that are advertised as Lawsuit models. Most of it is people hearing about the "lawsuit", which btw there was never any lawsuits, and think all Tokai's are "lawsuit" models. Or they are trying to dupe unknowing people into thinking they are buying something that they are not.

Unfortunately, there are dishonest people out there.

Ned

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Peter Mac
Guitar God


Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1060
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James and Ned
My understanding is there never was a lawsuit, just a threat of one.
The basis was that the springy sound had the word "STRAT" in the discription and Fender owned a copyright of the word. (Notice that only the springys' name was altered and not the breezys'.)
Because of this threat from Fender, Tokai changed the headstock shape and logos for sale to the US market. The rest of the world got a logo change. All this kinda happened around 1982-83..?
I think Ned said before , after asking the Tokai President, that NO lawsuit ever ensued.

Some of these comments may not be 100% accurate but should be pretty close.

Peter
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TommyR
Power chords are my friend


Joined: 04 Nov 2001
Posts: 30
Location: Cardiff, Wales

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose that if there was no lawsuit nobody can talk about lawsuit tokais full stop. I think the idea of lawsuit depends on where you're from. In the US, a 'lawsuit' Tokai may be considered to be one with the unaltered headstock; in Europe (where we've always had the correctly shaped headstocks) many would consider the lawsuit models to be those with the 7okai script logo. And to confuse matters further, I'm sure that I saw an AST or an ATE model on ebay recently with the 7okai logo and altered headstock!
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james
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Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 294
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2002 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generally I think its ignorance plus a bit of deviousness from some. But also I think people like to glamourize guitars with a bit of myth and mystery: hence a threat is exaggerated to become a lawsuit. Dealers love it and propagate these ideas further, but we're all a bit guilty of it, in that it increases the pleasure of 'discovering' one of these guitars. The first one I bought I picked up in the shop because it was a Tokai and I'd heard all the 'lawsuit' stuff, but in the end I bought it because it played and sounded great. Personally thats why I don't go for eBay - I'll buy a guitar because I experience it to be good, not because someone I don't know tells me its good, or just because its a Tokai. After all, I'm sure Tokai is just as capable of making a few dogs as any other maker (not that I've ever played one ).

James
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loverockerUK
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2002 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

null

Last edited by loverockerUK on Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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javelin70
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Joined: 09 Sep 2001
Posts: 820
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2002 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually there were Tokai logo's for sale at ebay.com a month or so ago!

Michael
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james
Guitar God


Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 294
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2002 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres another eBay 'lawsuit' Tokai:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=850064366

An all black Super Edition with locking trem! Although the locking nut has been removed to give it a pre-CBS vibe apparently
This ad also has that bit of seller's bullsh*t that annoys me the most: apparently its a 'player's guitar'. What does that mean?! As opposed to what exactly? Are we supposed to believe that because its got non-original parts and is a bit beat up that this is somehow is a positive selling point? Please tell me I'm not the only one who finds this annoying?
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james
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Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 294
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2002 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It just gets worse:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=860032807

Apparently this one is a late 70s model Breezy
An early appearance for the angled headstock then! I'm tempted to email the seller, but it looks like a dealer so they probably won't care about the inaccuracy of their information.

James
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james
Guitar God


Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 294
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2002 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mailed them anyway. Lets see if they change their description....
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Teenslain
Plucker


Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 7
Location: London

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2002 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: Michael's post

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=858634556

Springy Sound buyers beware!

Joe
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james
Guitar God


Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 294
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2002 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, fair enough, they mailed me back and amended their description. My work here is done
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loverockerUK
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2002 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

null

Last edited by loverockerUK on Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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james
Guitar God


Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 294
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2002 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why doesn't he say that on the ad then? Another case of omission of information that ends up misleading people. The current bid is GB?39.50 (!) and I can't believe anyone would pay that if they knew it was faked. I don't think it matters if its fake (so long as you know it) and cheap and you want to restore a Tokai, but I'm concerned that these will start turning up on non-Tokai guitars and people will get ripped off. All the more reason to get as much info as we can here about other identification methods (e.g. pickups, body codes, serial numbers, etc).

James
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loverockerUK
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2002 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

null

Last edited by loverockerUK on Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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