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Six digit SN on Love Rock
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maunaloa
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Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From hans-j?rgen's interview in 2005 with Shohei Adachi, President of Tokai Gakki, at
http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4434

"Like Mr. Adachi mentioned their Korean partner produced Love Rocks with other specs (i.e. with mahogany bodies) for the Canadian Tokai distributor without his permission, and that's why there will be a new Canadian distributor soon."

Is there any conclusion other than the previous Canadian distributor brought in a "special order" of 6 digit SN, UK headstock, Love Rocks from the Korean contractor without the approval of Tokai? Therefore, these Love Rocks were not made by Tokai. I'm sure an intellectual property lawyer would have a field day with this.

I also doubt the current Canadian distributor, or Tokai Gakki, will go anywhere near this issue, thus no return call.

[Edit: Look's like I was wrong about a response from Tokai Gakki. Thank you, Adachi-shacho.]


Last edited by maunaloa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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leadguitar_323
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Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 3534
Location: Brisbane Australia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all, Well, I also received that exact story today, this time from japan.

Quote...... mick this is the reply from tokai today..................a shocking truth here............................

it says............................................

WE STOPPED DEALING WITH ACTIVE MUSICAL PRODUCTS LTD BECAUSE THEY MADE TOKAI GUITARS
IN KOREA WITHOUT OUR PERMISSION...............................................................................................

So thats it, active musical products were the Tokai distributor but it looks like they did a deal with the factory
in korea that was making the "korean models" and decided they wanted different materials and models and
went ahead and ordered them without knowledge of the Tokai company, so in a way they are fakes and in
a way they are not. They still would be reasonably good guitars seeing as they came out of the same factory.
I think they have a mahogany body and maple neck. I would call them "unautherised Tokai's" Maybe?

Interesting i suppose, and i'm glad i have finally found out what went on with these guitars.
My sources in japan are ultra reliable , i have quite a few good contacts in japan {hence all of my guitars !!} so i think i can finally put
this episode to bed.
So yes Togps you were right i suppose but what i was after is why you called these "fakes" not once did you offer evidence so i was on a mission to find out exactly what went on. I never questioned your credibility, just the lack of evidence, it was solid proof i was after and finally i have it.
As far as JSD and the other shops that sold these they weren't to know. The Canadian distributor is very hard to get in contact with has no website and no email, but after some good detective work by a few interested forum members we can finally lay the Canadian Tokai story to bed.

Cheers all
Mick

Cheers Mick
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Mickdal
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Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 245
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting............A ROGUE GUITAR?

An outlaw..............?

No True Maker.........?

Not a Tokai, Not a Fake, Not a hope for the guitar...........Poor bastard.......

But Hey.......it's a Les Paul

Mick
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maunaloa
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Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mick and friends, great detective work.

I guess we won't ever see a catalog shot of a "NALS-48", or a shipping document from Tokai to the former Canadian distributor, will we?

In my opinion, the NALS-48 is a total fake because it is an unlicensed use of Tokai's trademark. That's what makes a fake. You collect parts correct enough to fool a consumer, and put a trademark on the product without the permission of the trademark owner.
It's a parts-kai.
aka Fakai.

maunaloa wrote:
I now think it is a "parts-kai"... the UK-model parts walked out of the Korean factory for a "special order" to Canada.
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stratman323
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As has been said on these pages before - a fake of a fake? That is kinda funny....
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stratmoto
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Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 439
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

leadguitar_323 wrote:
Hi all, Well, I also received that exact story today, this time from japan.

Quote...... mick this is the reply from tokai today..................a shocking truth here............................

it says............................................

WE STOPPED DEALING WITH ACTIVE MUSICAL PRODUCTS LTD BECAUSE THEY MADE TOKAI GUITARS
IN KOREA WITHOUT OUR PERMISSION...............................................................................................

So thats it, active musical products were the Tokai distributor but it looks like they did a deal with the factory
in korea that was making the "korean models" and decided they wanted different materials and models and
went ahead and ordered them without knowledge of the Tokai company, so in a way they are fakes and in
a way they are not. They still would be reasonably good guitars seeing as they came out of the same factory.
I think they have a mahogany body and maple neck. I would call them "unautherised Tokai's" Maybe?

Interesting i suppose, and i'm glad i have finally found out what went on with these guitars.
My sources in japan are ultra reliable , i have quite a few good contacts in japan {hence all of my guitars !!} so i think i can finally put
this episode to bed.
So yes Togps you were right i suppose but what i was after is why you called these "fakes" not once did you offer evidence so i was on a mission to find out exactly what went on. I never questioned your credibility, just the lack of evidence, it was solid proof i was after and finally i have it.
As far as JSD and the other shops that sold these they weren't to know. The Canadian distributor is very hard to get in contact with has no website and no email, but after some good detective work by a few interested forum members we can finally lay the Canadian Tokai story to bed.

Cheers all
Mick

Cheers Mick


Thanks Mick,

Now I understand, not FAKAI, That could be used as a general term for blatant rip offs and such.

Now kown as "NOKAI". Correctly pronounced Noekai An enigma wrapped in a conundrum.
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togps
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Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 2043
Location: Bavaria, Germany

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

leadguitar_323 wrote:

So thats it, active musical products were the Tokai distributor but it looks like they did a deal with the factory
in korea that was making the "korean models" and decided they wanted different materials and models and
went ahead and ordered them without knowledge of the Tokai company, so in a way they are fakes and in
a way they are not. They still would be reasonably good guitars seeing as they came out of the same factory.


It is not the same factory. (I know the owner ..)

maunaloa wrote:
Therefore, these Love Rocks were not made by Tokai. I'm sure an intellectual property lawyer would have a field day with this.


That is exactly the point

maunaloa wrote:
In my opinion, the NALS-48 is a total fake because it is an unlicensed use of Tokai's trademark. That's what makes a fake. You collect parts correct enough to fool a consumer, and put a trademark on the product without the permission of the trademark owner.
It's a parts-kai.
aka Fakai.


+1
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maunaloa
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Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the eyes of guitar collectors, the "NALS-48" might be a "Nokai", and might even become collectible. It would help collectiblity if Tokai sued AMP, it would make these 6 digit SN things "Lawsuit II" Tokais. Maybe that's why Tokai didn't sue.

Folks, a collection of parts correct enough to fool a consumer together with the unlicensed use of a trademark is a fake. It's the legal definition of fake, aka "palming off", and "deceptive trade practices".

A copy is legally different from a fake.... because the fake uses a trademark without license and a copy doesn't. LP copies branded Tokai, Greco, Ibanez, Burny, but not branded Gibson, are copies, but don't infringe Gibson's trademark.

Gibson could have trademarked the Les Paul single cutaway design in 1954, but they didn't. The Coke bottle shape is trademarked, for instance. Today, Gibson can't do anything about guitars in the shape of an LP. Where Tokai crossed the line was the "Les Paul Reborn" product name. Gibson is still on the warpath over that. Gibson lost face big-time, because the LP Reborn was a better guitar than Gibson's product of that era.

When Tokai used the words "Les Paul" in naming one of its guitar models, Gibson had not yet trademarked the words "Les Paul". That TM app was filed by Gibson on Oct. 3, 1988. Gibson did have an earlier design mark for a truss rod cover with the words Les Paul, and Gibson was able to leverage that against Tokai.

The current Chinese copies of Les Pauls are branded Gibson. The "NALS-48", aka 6 digit SN thing, was branded Tokai. Both of these products are fakes.
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rgrabows
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Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good read ...

Now I am starting to wonder about the Tokai LP copy I bought 2 years ago that has NO serial number anywhere on it.
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bobb
Power chords are my friend


Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was fun. So now that the 2005 "NALS-48" with the six digit serial number have supposedly been explained, how about an explanation of the 2004 model with a seven digit serial number? This also includes the NALS-302(LP Studio copy).

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leadguitar_323
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Joined: 14 Nov 2006
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Location: Brisbane Australia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bobb, mate no probability at all any more its a fact.. I was sure that these guitars weren't fakes and so i did a lot of research behind the scenes with a couple of other forum members and with Tokai themselves to find out as much as possible and ended up finding everything even though it proved me wrong.. Now i'm no expert on "fakes" but i think the pic you have posted is one of the Canadian market fakes and if i'm right the giveaway is the "made under license" sticker on the back of the headstockStick around and i'm sure someone will confirm it for you.

Mick
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bobb
Power chords are my friend


Joined: 30 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gee, so I guess that I am one of the many who are stuck with a "fake" that is spec'ed better and plays better than the original model( ALS-48 ). I guess I can suffer with that.
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leadguitar_323
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another one....

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=65513#65513

Mick
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doavaado
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Joined: 25 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:13 am    Post subject: Canadian built Tokai Strat, 1 of 25 Reply with quote

Here"s my story. I purchased a Tokai Strat that was assembled in Toronto Canada by Active Music in late 2003. The guitar is made up of parts from the USA (electronics) and the neck and body were products from Japan. Active took the initiative of assembling 25 only Strats. They employed an Ex Tokai luthier from Japan to do the setups. This guitar has no serial numbers on it. No country of origin either, but I have had the neck off and there is the number "24" on the body under where the neck mounts. These 25 guitars were distributed in 2005.
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doavaado
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Joined: 25 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Canadian built Tokai Strat, 1 of 25 Reply with quote

Here's my story. I purchased a Tokai Strat that was assembled in Toronto Canada by Active Music in late 2003. The guitar is made up of parts from the USA (electronics) and the neck and body were products from Japan. Active took the initiative of assembling 25 only Strats. They employed an Ex Tokai luthier from Japan to do the setups. This guitar has no serial numbers on it. No country of origin either, but I have had the neck off and there is the number "24" on the body under where the neck mounts. These 25 guitars were distributed in 2005. I was also told that this guitar was built with the same specifications that Stevie Ray Vaughan was to endorse before his death. Does anyone out there have any other information on these guitars? The name of the luthier? Were they only Strats made? Anyone out there that may have one of these?
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