Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com Forum Index
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

K Serial Orville origins
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com Forum Index -> Orville
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
japanstrat
Guitar God


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terada Orville by Gibson and K Orville with the same pots from the same period, 1988/1989.
These type of pots are in some made in Japan Charvels from the late 80s as well.

1988 OBG braid wiring, pot markings M500kA 87 K





1989 K Orville plain wiring, pot markings M500kA 8D K





Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
japanstrat
Guitar God


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

K Orville Pots

The pots I'm talking about here are the pots that came standard when the guitar was bought new and not pots that have been changed.

There are 2 main types of pots used on the K Orvilles and both types are the same types as Terada used on the G serial Orville by Gibsons and the Terada J serial Orvilles from 1995-1998.

The first pot type has a M500K(ohm)A printed on the top line with a XX number and a K printed on the next line.
These pots are used on all the Terada G serial Orville by Gibsons and K Orvilles from 1988-1992.
These type of pots are also on Japanese made Charvel and BC Rich guitars from the late 1980s.





These pots are also used on the Terada G serial Orville by Gibsons.







Then there are the K Orville "Made in Japan" pots which have A500K(ohm) on the top line and have "Made in Japan" on the second line. These types of pots start to appear around 1992





These pots are also used on the Terada J serial Orvilles like this Flying V.
Most of the Orville Flying V's are made by Terada and have a J serial like this 1996 Orville Flying V with a J6xxxxx serial number.
The Orville by Gibson Flying V's became just Orville Flying V's in 1995 when the Orville by Gibsons were stopped.
These "Made in Japan" pots are also used on some Japanese made Tokai Love Rocks.







The FujiGen no letter ink stamped serial Orvilles from 1993-1998 mostly seem to use small pots but sometimes use the same pots as Terada (M500KohmA printed on the top line with a XX number and a K printed on the next line).

What it all means is that the two different types of pots that were used on the K Orvilles were the same type as the two different types of pots Terada was using for the G serial Orville by Gibsons and the J serial Orvilles so the K Orvilles could not be from Korea.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
japanstrat
Guitar God


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1114116206

there is a japanese K Orville original owner that says he bought his K Orville in the spring of 1994 and it has a 1993 K 03XXXX serial number (the first number after the K and 0 is the year), so it's just more confirmation about when the K Orvilles were sold.

Translated

Less pole of o buildingBeing to like to hear concerningIt does, but spring 1994The new item it purchases at the musical instrument house

Manufacturer: OrviLle
Model name: LPS-That 75 (was, thought nowIt does)
Price: 75000 Yen
Serial: Head reverse side With K038490
Neck joint: Front PU Wall surface of head approaching of Edge of neck material being visibleIt increases (don't know if it's a medium or long tenon from that translation)
Neck: Mahogany1 piece (it succeeds, the heel)
Body top: MayPulling (Maple) 2 piece
Body back: Moth knee (Mahogany) 3 piece
Reverse side panel: CreamColor
Pot: Made in500 K of Japan (500 K pots with Made in Japan stamped on them)
Condenser: It is smallIt is, the ceramics make of green color?
Finish: Poly-Paint

Also there is this earlier K Orville dating thread where an original K Orville owner bought it in 1990 and it has a 1989 serial number K098376.

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6770&highlight=orville+date

Nice to meet you the mail thank you.
I am sorry when the grammar is wrong because I am not good at English.

I will talk about my Orville guitar.
I bought it at 1990.
K serial number is ?K098376?.

It bought when I was a high school student.
My most favorite guitarist is John Sykes,
and, a favorite guitar is Gibson '72 LES PAUL CUSTOM "black beauty".

Did you help you?

Thank You.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
japanstrat
Guitar God


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Gibson Les Paul has a diagonal wiring channel that goes from the switch cavity to the control cavity, hitting the two pickup cavities along the way.
So the switch wires and both humbucker wires go through the same diagonal wiring channel and all the wires end up coming out of one hole in the control cavity.

The Terada G serial Orville by Gibson Les Pauls are done this way as well.

Terada Orville by Gibson diagonal wiring channel.
Switch and pickup diagonal wiring channel is the blue line.





Terada drill the diagonal wiring channel in the Mahogany body before the Maple top is put on the Mahogany body. The diagonal wiring channel is drilled in the Mahogany body at a depth that is roughly just below the pickup cavities depth. After the Maple top is put on the Mahogany body, the pickup cavities are routed and then Terada drills a small hole from inside the pickup cavity that hits the diagonal wiring channel (green arrow in the above image) so that the pickup wires can go through the diagonal wiring channel to the control cavity.

For some of the K Orvilles Terada don't drill a small hole to the diagonal wiring channel, instead they drill a wiring channel (red lines in the above image) up the centre of the body from the neck cavity pickup to the bridge cavity pickup and another wiring channel from the bridge pickup cavity to the control cavity. Maybe it's quicker to do it this way.

Terada K Orville wiring channels
Switch diagonal wiring channel is the blue line.
Additional wiring channels for pickup wires are the red lines.



The K Orville Les Pauls have a diagonal wiring channel that is identical to the Terada G serial Orville by Gibsons but they also sometimes have 2 additional wiring channels that are drilled after the Maple top is put on and after the pickup routing is done. The K Orville Les Pauls have a diagonal wiring channel that goes from the switch cavity to the control cavity (the same as the OBG's) but also sometimes have a centre drilled wiring channel that goes from the neck pickup cavity to the bridge pickup cavity and a wiring channel that goes from the bridge pickup cavity to the control cavity. So the K Orville Les Pauls sometimes have two wiring channel holes in the control cavity and the G serial Orville by Gibsons have only one wiring channel hole in the control cavity.

K Orville 2 wiring channel holes in the pickup cavity with the grey, black and red switch wires going through the top hole and the thicker black pickup wires going through the bottom hole. Usually there would be only the top hole (diagonal wiring channel) and all the switch wires and pickup wires would go through it.





The K Orville Les Pauls switch wires go through the diagonal wiring channel and the neck humbucker wires go through the neck to bridge pickup cavity wiring channel and then the bridge and neck pickup wires go through the bridge pickup cavity to control cavity wiring channel.

K Orville black and red switch wires going down the diagonal wiring channel and the thicker black pickup wire going down the neck to bridge pickup cavity wiring channel.



I have never seen the K Orville Les Pauls wiring channel scheme on any other guitar whether it was an American, Japanese, Korean, Chinese or whatever made guitar.

What it all means is that Terada were using the same Mahogany bodies for both the G serial Orville by Gibson Les Pauls and the K Orville Les Pauls and the Mahogany bodies were pre drilled with a diagonal wiring channel .


The K Orvilles have G serial Orville by Gibson bodies with pre drilled diagonal wiring channels that are later modified with 2 additional wiring channels after the Maple top has been put on and after the pickup routing is done because it's probably quicker and easier to do than accurately blind drilling the small holes down to the diagonal wiring channel as they do on the OBGs.

FujiGen no letter serial OBG and Orville switch and pickup wiring channels, green lines.



1998 no G or J letter serial number Fujigen Orville (Photo Flame) with wiring channel going down the right side of the pickup cavities.



There is really no need for the K Orvilles to have a diagonal wiring channel.
They already have a neck pickup cavity to bridge pickup cavity wiring channel and a bridge pickup cavity to control cavity wiring channel so all that would be needed for all the switch and pickup wires to reach the control cavity would be a switch cavity to neck pickup wiring channel like on the FujiGen wiring channel scheme above.
The K Orvilles only have a diagonal wiring channel because they have the same bodies as the G serial Orville by Gibson bodies. The K Orvilles and G serial Orville by Gibsons also have the same mixture of long, medium long and medium tenons.

1980 Burny FLG



http://www.japanguitars.co.uk/burny%20info.html

The K Orvilles wiring channels could have easily been done like on this 1980 Burny FLG where the switch wires are going through a switch control cavity to neck pickup cavity wiring channel and then the switch wires and neck humbucker wires are taken down the centre drilled neck pickup cavity to bridge pickup cavity wiring channel. Notice that the centre drilled wiring channel on the Burny is done the same way as on the K Orvilles. The centre drilled wiring channel is drilled after the pickup cavity is routed and you can see where the drill has left it's mark in the pickup cavity after drilling the centre wiring channel which is the same on the K Orvilles. If the K Orvilles were done like the Burny then there is no need for a diagonal wiring channel but the K Orvilles do have a diagonal wiring channel and so do the G serial Orville by Gibsons so the K Orvilles must be using G serial Orville by Gibson bodies. It's very strange to have both a diagonal wiring channel and a centre drilled wiring channel. The Burny just has a centre drilled wiring channel and doesn't have a diagonal wiring channel whereas the K Orvilles have both. Not all K Orvilles have the centre drilled wiring channel. Some K Orvilles just have the same diagonal wiring channel as the G serial Orville by Gibsons with no centre drilled wiring channel. Maybe some G serial Orville by Gibsons have both the centre drilled wiring channel and the diagonal wiring channel.

K Orville with no centre wiring channel and only a diagonal wiring channel which is exactly the same as the Terada G serial Orville by Gibsons diagonal wiring channel.











K Orville neck to bridge pickup cavity wiring channel drilled after the Maple top has been put on and after the pickup routing is done.



1980s Burny FLG-90 control cavity.



Here is a early 1980s Burny FLG-90 control cavity. If a diagonal wiring channel was used there would be a hole where the green circle is drawn. The wiring channel hole (blue arrow) is in the same place as the K Orvilles and the Burny only has one hole because it doesn't have a diagonal wiring channel. The small hole with the green wire going through it is a bridge ground hole and not important. So if the Burny FLG-90 had a diagonal wiring channel added to it, then it would have the same wiring channel scheme as the K Orvilles. So it looks like the early 1980s Burny FLG-240, FLG-150 and FLG-90 models were probably made by Terada as Terada uses this wiring channel scheme and it is quite distinctive and not used by any other guitar factory. FujiGen and Tokai for instance only have one top hole in the control cavity where the green circle is in the above image. The bottom hole pointed to by the blue arrow is quite unusual.

Why didn't Terada use the centre drilled wiring channel scheme (instead of the diagonal wiring channel scheme) on the OBGs like on the K Orvilles or the Burny FLGs? Maybe Terada were trying to stick with the Gibson style diagonal wiring channel scheme for the OBGs as the OBGs were supposed to stick closely to Gibson designs. With the K Orvilles, Terada sometimes didn't seem to care about sticking to the Gibson diagonal wiring channel scheme so just drilled a centre wiring channel scheme even though the K Orvilles do have the diagonal wiring channel scheme as well. The K Orvilles have both the OBG diagonal wiring channel and the Burny FLG centre wiring channel schemes.

Looking at the guitar top here are the wiring channel schemes for different factories.

FujiGen uses a switch cavity to neck pickup cavity wiring channel and then a wiring channel running down the right side of the pickup cavities to the control cavity. There is one wire hole in the control cavity positioned towards the centre of the body (looking at the guitars back).
Fujigen use this wiring channel scheme on the Grecos and the Orvilles.

Tokai use a diagonal wiring channel from the switch cavity to the control cavity. There is one wire hole in the control cavity positioned towards the centre of the body (looking at the guitars back). This wiring channel scheme is like Gibsons.

Terada uses a switch cavity to neck pickup cavity wiring channel and then a wiring channel running down the centre of the pickup cavities and then a bridge pickup cavity to control cavity wiring channel. There is one wire hole in the control cavity positioned towards the outside of the body which is the opposite of where the FujiGen and Tokai wire hole is positioned.
Terada also used a diagonal Gibson wiring channel for the Orville by Gibsons.

The control cavity wire hole position on most Les Pauls is usually positioned towards the centre of the body (looking at the guitars back). The only exception I know of is the Terada wire hole position which is positioned towards the outside of the body (looking at the guitars back).

Have a look at this pages "Pickups in detail" section to see the different types (and different makers) of wiring channel schemes used on the Burnys over the years. http://www.japanguitars.co.uk/burny%20info.html

Here is a distinctive Terada pickup routing corner hump that's sometimes on the G serial Orville by Gibsons and sometimes on the K Orvilles but not on the FujiGen no letter serial OBG's or Orvilles.









Terada Orville by Gibson pickup routing corner hump which is the same as the K Orville above.







1. The K Orvilles were made in the same years as the G serial Orville by Gibsons. 1989-1993.
2. Terada made all the (G serial) Orville by Gibsons from 1988 to late 1992.
3. The G serial Orville by Gibsons and the K Orvilles have the same cnc computer controlled routed body shapes and necks and also have the same pickup and control routing.
4. The Terada G serial Orville by Gibsons and the K Orvilles have a mixture of long, medium long and medium tenons. The FujiGen no letter serial OBG's and Orvilles always have long tenons.
5. The Terada G serial Orville by Gibsons sometimes have separate neck heels identical to the K Orville separate neck heels.
6. The Terada G serial Orville by Gibsons and K Orville Les Paul custom models have the same headstock shapes and width and inlay spacing, meaning that they were both finished in the same factory.
7. The Terada G serial Orville by Gibsons and K Orville Les Pauls have the same wiring channels (as described above) and pickup and control routing, meaning that they both share the same bodies and were made and routed in the same factory.
8.The Terada G serial Orville by Gibsons and K Orville Les Pauls have the same Japanese made pots.
9. When there is only one guitar factory making the guitars for a music company there is often no real need to use serial numbers.
Terada were the only guitar factory making (OBG and Orville) guitars for Yamano Gakki between 1988 and late 1992.
10. Jim Donahue from Hoshino/Ibanez visited all of the main Korean and Japanese factories at the time the K Orvilles were being made and didn't see Orvilles anywhere except Terada and FujiGen. Jim donahue also solved the mystery as to why FujiGen didn't start making Orville by Gibsons until late 1992. It was due to Fujigen not being very interested in set neck guitar making in the late 1980s/early 1990s.
11. The K Orville regular LPs and SGs were sold for the same price as the regular ink stamped Orville LPs and SGs (LPC-75 = 75,000 yen, SG-65 = 65,000 Yen) and in fact the K Orville Les Paul Juniors sold for 5,000 Yen more than the ink stamped Orville Les Pauls.
12. It seems that a lot of Japanese and overseas guitar dealers don't know the difference between late 1980s/early 1990s Korean and Japanese made guitars and make their judgments on rumours and a sticker.


Last edited by japanstrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:07 am; edited 15 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
luis
Guitar God


Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 2311
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really fantastic explanation japanstrat.

Thank you!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cino.and
Guitar God


Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 126
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW:-O
Really good explain!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
leadguitar_323
Guitar God


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 3534
Location: Brisbane Australia

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done Japanstrat, and it makes perfect sense..

Mick
_________________
so many guitars....so little money...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
villager
Guitar God


Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3507
Location: Middle of Nowhere.. France.

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok i just discovered something interesting..my ObG wine red with no ser no (so i assumed it was 1995..very late production and they just didnt stamp it) actually has in the right light the remnants of sticker evidence, now remember this is an Orville BY Gibson, with a ebony board and all mahog body, and fret binding...but has anyone ever seen another like this with a sticker? i haven't so I am assuming from japanstrats excellent info, that it is a 1993? era terada guitar..

pics here...

http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a278/generalunrest/ObG%20LPC%2057%20Reissue%20Wine%20Red%201995/
_________________
http://www.japanguitars.co.uk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
leadguitar_323
Guitar God


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 3534
Location: Brisbane Australia

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark, i bought and sold on one just like that last year, mine was serialed and a Terada made guitar and was exactly like yours, right down to the Terada headstock shape. So i'd say just from the shape of the headstock on that one that it is a Terada made guitar. Compare it to a fujigen made one and you'll see the difference...

Mick
_________________
so many guitars....so little money...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
villager
Guitar God


Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3507
Location: Middle of Nowhere.. France.

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes its different to the fuji-gen ones ..

but its the only stickered ObG I have ever seen, heh maybe they ran out of ink that day
_________________
http://www.japanguitars.co.uk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
japanstrat
Guitar God


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The http://www.guitarsjapan.com/orvillegibsoninfopage.html page is full of serial number errors
(for the correct serial numbers look around here or at Japanaxe or the Orville by Gibson wiki page).
This page also has a strange K Orville entry about Korean stickers under silver stickers which is completely wrong.
No K Orvilles have silver stickers and they don't have stickers under stickers (breeding stickers?)
and no Orville has any country of origin stickers full stop. They have probably bought a K Orville that
has been restickered by some genius like this K Orville that has ended up with a 1977 Greco sticker.



Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Koubayashi
Guitar God


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 1544
Location: Tokyo

PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an Orville by Gibson SG without serial number.
So that supports the theory about the stickers on the early ones.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
japanstrat
Guitar God


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to be a few Orville by Gibsons with no serial numbers around.

Do you have any pictures of it?

I'd say it is probably a Terada made OBG SG.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Koubayashi
Guitar God


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 1544
Location: Tokyo

PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

japanstrat wrote:
Seems to be a few Orville by Gibsons with no serial numbers around.

Do you have any pictures of it?

I'd say it is probably a Terada made OBG SG.


I am not sure of the maker yet.
Haven't dissected it yet

This one had a rugh life and I accidently dropped a heavy amp on it so the head snapped. The the headstock veneer broke inte two pieces as well.
I am currently fixing the crack and decided to replace the veneer. I removed the veneer from a K-Orville SG and to my surprise it does not fit perfectly on the 0bG. Small variations are OK but the holes for the tuners are totally out of place. Will try to remember to post a pic or two.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com Forum Index -> Orville All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Page 6 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group