What's the real 50s wiring?

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ganzua
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What's the real 50s wiring?

Post by ganzua » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:25 am

Hi!

It seems there are more than one "50s wiring" :lol:

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Which one is the real 50s wiring? The first one?

I'd like to try a "de-coupled" mod because I like to mix the pick ups using the volume pots. What do you think is better? the second or the third one?

tudor
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Re: What's the real 50s wiring?

Post by tudor » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:48 am

ganzua wrote:Hi!

It seems there are more than one "50s wiring" :lol:

Image

Which one is the real 50s wiring? The first one?
I'd prefer the first mod ... my diagram is identical ... 8)
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Roger
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Rustyslide
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Post by Rustyslide » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:12 am

The one marked as "50s" (the first) is correct. The other two are b) like the first, but with independent volumes, and c) like modern wiring, but with independent volumes.

Try the independent volumes, but you might find it to not be the panacea you hope for.
http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=63709#63709

ganzua
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Post by ganzua » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:42 am

Thanks for diagram Tudor :D
Rustyslide wrote:Try the independent volumes, but you might find it to not be the panacea you hope for.
Why not? what's the downside?

BTW, is it the same which lug you use to ground the pots?

Mick51
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Post by Mick51 » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:34 pm

Each style has it's own pros and cons.
In the so-called "independent volume controls," the downside is that the tone capacitor is connected to the "hot" wire from the pickup. This means that, as the volume is turned down and less signal passes, via the switch, to the output jack, the tone capacitor is still rolling off highs from the input (hot) side. The result is that as the volume is turned down, the sound becomes muddy. The common way to deal with this is to put a small capacitor across the hot and wiper lugs on the volume pot, to bleed through some highs to the output side.
The 50's style wiring avoids this treble bleed problem by connecting the wiper lug - the output signal from the volume pot - to the tone capacitor. So, as the volume is turned down, the fraction of highs bled off appears to stay about the same. The downside of 50's style wiring is that, with the 3-way switch in the middle position, there are two paths to ground, so turning down either volume pot drops the output of both.
Good question. There are a lot of strong opinions in each camp.
There is no revolution, only evolution..

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Post by skalie » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:37 pm

..... not to mention a lot of confusion.

stratman323

Post by stratman323 » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:50 pm

My head is spinning! :o Why not use one master volume, one master tone, then separate volumes for each pickup using the lower two pots to enable the two pickups to be balanced? Wouldn't that be an improvement?

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Post by Rustyslide » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:25 pm

Mick51 wrote:Each style has it's own pros and cons.
I think the cons you've described are for 50s and 'modern', rather than for independent vs the normal LP scheme.


ganzua, The link I posted contains a description of the downside as I see it, though I've never tried it - give it a whirl, it's easy enough to do.
Rustyslide wrote:Wired normally, both pickups selected: when one volume is all the way off, the other pickup "sees" no impedance between it and ground, and so all the signal goes that way, as the output jack/lead/amplifier has some nominal impedance (small, but not zero).

With "independent wiring", both pickups on: when one is off, the other pickup sees the full resistive load of that pot between it and ground, and sees a much lower impedance the other way, towards the output jack.

So far so good, right? Except that with independent volumes, rolling off the volume gradually shorts the pickup to ground, which changes the pickup's frequency response as the load it's seeing changes.

This link might be useful. (I realise it's to the LPF, but some people there actually know what they're talking about).

The ground lug I use is the same as in the diagrams. Just imagine which way the pots roll down and up to figure out how the electricity is flowing. In the colourful 50s Style wiring diagram you posted, all the way on means that all the electrons flow from the red wire's lug to the yellow wire's lug (it's an AC circuit, but let's pretend it's like DC for the moment). As you roll down the volume, the sweeper (from the centre lug, on the pot), moves around, from the red wire lug towards the ground lug. It's passing over a resistor, and as the resistor gets longer (distance from the red wire lug, around the pot to the sweeper and yellow wire lug), the resistance goes up, and the more signal that's lost as heat.

Hope this is helpful, but I'm a bit ill, so please just ask questions rather than let me ramble... and ramble...


"Why not use one master volume, one master tone, then separate volumes for each pickup using the lower two pots to enable the two pickups to be balanced? Wouldn't that be an improvement?"

Some do do this. Lots of Gretch guitars are wired that way.

I really like the LP wiring scheme (50s). The trick to not turning your guitar off is just not to roll off the volumes all the way. It's really not that difficutl in my experience.

ganzua
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Post by ganzua » Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:00 am

Thanks for the explanations Mick51 and Rustyslide :D
Mick51 wrote:Each style has it's own pros and cons.
In the so-called "independent volume controls," the downside is that the tone capacitor is connected to the "hot" wire from the pickup. This means that, as the volume is turned down and less signal passes, via the switch, to the output jack, the tone capacitor is still rolling off highs from the input (hot) side. The result is that as the volume is turned down, the sound becomes muddy.
When does it happen this? whenever you switch both pick ups or you get muddiness with just one pick up engaged aswell?

Mick51 wrote: The common way to deal with this is to put a small capacitor across the hot and wiper lugs on the volume pot, to bleed through some highs to the output side.
I have two guitars with a kit of a capacitor + a resistor in the volume pots 8) ; a Dearmond m77t and a Telecaster 52.

Perhaps the result depends on the cap. the resistor you chosed and the pick ups. The Telecaster sounds ok but the Dearmond is a disaster. I replaced the stock pick ups with TVJones filtertrons and you almost can't use the volume pots. At their full range you already notice too much brightness but whenever you roll off volume, the sounds becomes strident. I'm going to remove the volume kit of this guitar.
Rustyslide wrote:Hope this is helpful, but I'm a bit ill, so please just ask questions rather than let me ramble... and ramble...
Hey Rustyslide :D , you can ramble all you want, it is quite interesting
Rustyslide wrote:Some do do this. Lots of Gretch guitars are wired that way.
Yes, but I think that Gretsch is another kind of "beast". I own a tenny and most of the time you play it with the pots at full range. I guess that's the reason why there are some models, like the hot rods, that only has one pot for the master volume.

The master volume it is quite useful to crank an amp like Brian Setzer does with his 64 bassman, he almost mute his guitar with the master volume and then he drives the amp till he gets a good distortion.

I ramble too :D . Anyway, I installed a set of 57/57+ classics in my Tokai that I haven't tried yet because I didn't decided how to wire the guitar.

So far I haven't use the tone pots too much, perhaps because I prefer to use the amp eq than the green capacitors but a set of bumblebees is coming next week.

With all these "assets" :lol: what do you think is my best bet? 50s or de-coupled? I'm towards to the de-coupled wiring but perhaps I'm wasting the bumblebees.

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Post by Rustyslide » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:21 am

ganzua wrote:
Mick51 wrote:The result is that as the volume is turned down, the sound becomes muddy.
When does it happen this? whenever you switch both pick ups or you get muddiness with just one pick up engaged aswell?
When they're both on. The independent vs. normal LP wirings are only different with both pickups are on.

The 50s vs modern wirings have an effect any time either (or both) pickups are on, and a volume for any "on" pickup is rolled down.
ganzua wrote:With all these "assets" :lol: what do you think is my best bet? 50s or de-coupled? I'm towards to the de-coupled wiring but perhaps I'm wasting the bumblebees.
You can do both 50s and independent - the 50s mod just puts the cap in parallel with the switch lead from the volume pot (vs modern having it parallel to the pickup lead), and independent reverses pickup and switch leads.

ganzua
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Post by ganzua » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:44 am

Rustyslide wrote: You can do both 50s and independent - the 50s mod just puts the cap in parallel with the switch lead from the volume pot (vs modern having it parallel to the pickup lead), and independent reverses pickup and switch leads.
Hey Rustyslide

Is there any noise issue with the "50s independent" wiring?. Yesterday I did some research and I found people claiming that this wiring is more noisy but I didn't catched any good reason for this.

I think there must be more issues with the "50s independent" wiring than the treble loss when switched to middle position.

As far as I understand; 50s and "50s independent" are the same for neck only / bridge only positions.

50s avoids treble loss whenever you roll off volume in the middle position + both volume pots are master volume

"50s independent" do have treble loss in the middle position but you get independent volumes.

If this is right, I don't catch why people prefer not to de-couple volumes. You get mudiness but you can just set the bridge at full range providing all the brightness you need andthen roll off the neck to taste.

That's what I always do in my Gretsch. The wiring is master volume, master tone and two independent volumes. There is a treble loss too but the bridge is bright enough to get a good sound when blending both pick ups.

rgrafend

Post by rgrafend » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:30 pm

Hi there! Perhaps I am just plain stupid. In any time my "knowledge" dates back to grammar school. And if I remember correctly you get either a high-pass or a low-pass filter depending on if you put a capacitor in parallel or in serial with a resistor.

Soundwise the point I'd like to make is that the filter is ALWAYS influenced by the res you are using. That's why you loose "bright" when you turn down the tone-pot.

I use a cap-switch since some time now. I.e. I change the cap on my Breezy without loosing sound.

Rup

rgrafend

Post by rgrafend » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:36 pm

'59
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MIJvintage
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Post by MIJvintage » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:11 pm

rgrafend wrote:'59
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............already seen two 2000 Tokai LS-320 models with the same pots & the same codes (9831) so I assume that's a 2000 LS-320, huh..............
http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl ... ij_vintage

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rgrafend

Post by rgrafend » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:18 pm

sure. It's my 2000 LS320. Correct 59 wiring as far as I am concerned. Caps to mass.

Rup

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