Six digit SN on Love Rock

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Hi Maunaloa, you won't see these in any catalogue, here is a quote from one source in Canada,Quote, "You
have to take into consideration the market in which these guitars were being
sold. Limited production, no marketing, no catalog spreads, thats the way it
was. Like I mentioned to you before, the Canadian distributor for Tokai had a very sweet deal with Tokai. The
details of which no one will ever truely know."

And quote..."There is nothing wrong with that guitar, it is a 2005 Tokai from Canada".
I am not at liberty to reveal my source but i received an email shortly after posting in this thread. I am in touch with some other Canadian people who i'm hoping will shed some more light on this contentious issue.

Mick
 
Mick,
Thanks for your research. I've learned from the buyer (from the seller) the identity of the probable retailer in Canada of the 050672 LR, whom I will call tomorrow on behalf of the buyer.

The description of "Tokai serial numbers" in the Tokai Registry will need to be updated to include the "2005 Canadian market, UK headstock, 3 screw switch cover special order" Love Rock model that has a 6 digit 050xxx serial number as a fake.

EDIT: To reflect outcome of the thread. The six digit SN "Love Rocks" are fakes.
 
leadguitar_323 said:
.... Like I mentioned to you before, the Canadian distributor for Tokai had a very sweet deal with Tokai.
Click to expand...
(Sweet, sweet, sweet ... sugar for my honey... ) :lol:

For sure, not so a sweet deal... only - misinformed bla bla ...

The details of which no one will ever truely know."
Click to expand...
???

There is no secret .. and everbody knows it, of course ..

Simple. There is no need to look into a glass ball. There is also no need to protect the Canadian fakers.
Mike, if you have any doubt about me, as a high repudiated forum member .. then you should ask the president of Tokai, for the truth, instead.
SIMPLE!!
Here is his email address.
[email protected]

Give him my regards ..

I dont accept FAKAIs, .... :evil:
 
JSD said:
The guitar in question is a Korean made, Canadian market NALS-48 Tokai Love Rock flame top with tangerine burst finish. 2005 model.
Click to expand...

Who was the Canadian distributor for Tokai in 2005? I'd like to chat with him.

Today I spoke with a large Tokai dealer on the West Coast (one of the few who has some SC2 and SC2C models for sale, in fact), and he told me that he had never heard of a Tokai NALS-48, or a Tokai model with features of the "Love Rock" at issue. He was very skeptical about a Tokai with a 6 digit SN. No SN... well known. 7 digit SN, what you'd expect, but 6 digit SN....

I think the guitar is MIK, and I think it is "connected" to the Tokai contractor in Korea, but, to be blunt, I doubt that vendor was Tokai until someone from Tokai confirms it.

So, I invited whoever reads the email at the address togps provided to review this thread and comment.
 
Togps, i protect absolutely NO ONE but myself and my family, i have found 2 shops that have sold these from new, i also now know who the distributor was and i'd like you opinion as to why someone would fake only a small number of guitars once, when the shipment sold out almost immediately, it just doesn't make sense to me, i would have expected a flood of these so called "fakes", there wasn't and i for one would like to know why. I have revieved emails from canada concerned that this is a pile of misinformation and it has annoyed quite a few people so i am going to continue researching it so i can try and reveal the truth about these things. I don't particularly care what Mr Adachi says because i don't expect him to reveal any deal his company had with anyone.

Mick
 
I contacted the Canadian distributor, disclosing only the specs of the guitar at issue ("NALS-48", 6 digit SN, UK headstock)... left a voice mail. I'll report back if he returns my call.
 
From hans-j?rgen's interview in 2005 with Shohei Adachi, President of Tokai Gakki, at
http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4434

"Like Mr. Adachi mentioned their Korean partner produced Love Rocks with other specs (i.e. with mahogany bodies) for the Canadian Tokai distributor without his permission, and that's why there will be a new Canadian distributor soon."

Is there any conclusion other than the previous Canadian distributor brought in a "special order" of 6 digit SN, UK headstock, Love Rocks from the Korean contractor without the approval of Tokai? Therefore, these Love Rocks were not made by Tokai. I'm sure an intellectual property lawyer would have a field day with this.

I also doubt the current Canadian distributor, or Tokai Gakki, will go anywhere near this issue, thus no return call.

[Edit: Look's like I was wrong about a response from Tokai Gakki. Thank you, Adachi-shacho.]
 
Hi all, Well, I also received that exact story today, this time from japan.

Quote...... mick this is the reply from tokai today..................a shocking truth here............................

it says............................................

WE STOPPED DEALING WITH ACTIVE MUSICAL PRODUCTS LTD BECAUSE THEY MADE TOKAI GUITARS
IN KOREA WITHOUT OUR PERMISSION...............................................................................................

So thats it, active musical products were the Tokai distributor but it looks like they did a deal with the factory
in korea that was making the "korean models" and decided they wanted different materials and models and
went ahead and ordered them without knowledge of the Tokai company, so in a way they are fakes and in
a way they are not. They still would be reasonably good guitars seeing as they came out of the same factory.
I think they have a mahogany body and maple neck. I would call them "unautherised Tokai's" Maybe?

Interesting i suppose, and i'm glad i have finally found out what went on with these guitars.
My sources in japan are ultra reliable , i have quite a few good contacts in japan {hence all of my guitars !!} so i think i can finally put
this episode to bed.
So yes Togps you were right i suppose but what i was after is why you called these "fakes" not once did you offer evidence so i was on a mission to find out exactly what went on. I never questioned your credibility, just the lack of evidence, it was solid proof i was after and finally i have it.
As far as JSD and the other shops that sold these they weren't to know. The Canadian distributor is very hard to get in contact with has no website and no email, but after some good detective work by a few interested forum members we can finally lay the Canadian Tokai story to bed.

Cheers all
Mick

Cheers Mick
 
Interesting............A ROGUE GUITAR?

An outlaw..............?

No True Maker.........?

Not a Tokai, Not a Fake, Not a hope for the guitar...........Poor *******.......

But Hey.......it's a Les Paul 8)

Mick :wink:
 
Mick and friends, great detective work.

I guess we won't ever see a catalog shot of a "NALS-48", or a shipping document from Tokai to the former Canadian distributor, will we?

In my opinion, the NALS-48 is a total fake because it is an unlicensed use of Tokai's trademark. That's what makes a fake. You collect parts correct enough to fool a consumer, and put a trademark on the product without the permission of the trademark owner.
It's a parts-kai.
aka Fakai.

maunaloa said:
I now think it is a "parts-kai"... the UK-model parts walked out of the Korean factory for a "special order" to Canada.
Click to expand...
 
As has been said on these pages before - a fake of a fake? :eek: That is kinda funny....
 
leadguitar_323 said:
Hi all, Well, I also received that exact story today, this time from japan.

Quote...... mick this is the reply from tokai today..................a shocking truth here............................

it says............................................

WE STOPPED DEALING WITH ACTIVE MUSICAL PRODUCTS LTD BECAUSE THEY MADE TOKAI GUITARS
IN KOREA WITHOUT OUR PERMISSION...............................................................................................

So thats it, active musical products were the Tokai distributor but it looks like they did a deal with the factory
in korea that was making the "korean models" and decided they wanted different materials and models and
went ahead and ordered them without knowledge of the Tokai company, so in a way they are fakes and in
a way they are not. They still would be reasonably good guitars seeing as they came out of the same factory.
I think they have a mahogany body and maple neck. I would call them "unautherised Tokai's" Maybe?

Interesting i suppose, and i'm glad i have finally found out what went on with these guitars.
My sources in japan are ultra reliable , i have quite a few good contacts in japan {hence all of my guitars !!} so i think i can finally put
this episode to bed.
So yes Togps you were right i suppose but what i was after is why you called these "fakes" not once did you offer evidence so i was on a mission to find out exactly what went on. I never questioned your credibility, just the lack of evidence, it was solid proof i was after and finally i have it.
As far as JSD and the other shops that sold these they weren't to know. The Canadian distributor is very hard to get in contact with has no website and no email, but after some good detective work by a few interested forum members we can finally lay the Canadian Tokai story to bed.

Cheers all
Mick

Cheers Mick
Click to expand...

Thanks Mick,

Now I understand, not FAKAI, That could be used as a general term for blatant rip offs and such.

Now kown as "NOKAI". Correctly pronounced Noekai :D An enigma wrapped in a conundrum. :D
 
leadguitar_323 said:
So thats it, active musical products were the Tokai distributor but it looks like they did a deal with the factory
in korea that was making the "korean models" and decided they wanted different materials and models and
went ahead and ordered them without knowledge of the Tokai company, so in a way they are fakes and in
a way they are not. They still would be reasonably good guitars seeing as they came out of the same factory.
Click to expand...

It is not the same factory. (I know the owner ..)

maunaloa said:
Therefore, these Love Rocks were not made by Tokai. I'm sure an intellectual property lawyer would have a field day with this.
Click to expand...

That is exactly the point

maunaloa said:
In my opinion, the NALS-48 is a total fake because it is an unlicensed use of Tokai's trademark. That's what makes a fake. You collect parts correct enough to fool a consumer, and put a trademark on the product without the permission of the trademark owner.
It's a parts-kai.
aka Fakai.
Click to expand...

+1
 
In the eyes of guitar collectors, the "NALS-48" might be a "Nokai", and might even become collectible. It would help collectiblity if Tokai sued AMP, it would make these 6 digit SN things "Lawsuit II" Tokais. :) Maybe that's why Tokai didn't sue.

Folks, a collection of parts correct enough to fool a consumer together with the unlicensed use of a trademark is a fake. It's the legal definition of fake, aka "palming off", and "deceptive trade practices".

A copy is legally different from a fake.... because the fake uses a trademark without license and a copy doesn't. LP copies branded Tokai, Greco, Ibanez, Burny, but not branded Gibson, are copies, but don't infringe Gibson's trademark.

Gibson could have trademarked the Les Paul single cutaway design in 1954, but they didn't. The Coke bottle shape is trademarked, for instance. Today, Gibson can't do anything about guitars in the shape of an LP. Where Tokai crossed the line was the "Les Paul Reborn" product name. Gibson is still on the warpath over that. Gibson lost face big-time, because the LP Reborn was a better guitar than Gibson's product of that era.

When Tokai used the words "Les Paul" in naming one of its guitar models, Gibson had not yet trademarked the words "Les Paul". That TM app was filed by Gibson on Oct. 3, 1988. Gibson did have an earlier design mark for a truss rod cover with the words Les Paul, and Gibson was able to leverage that against Tokai.

The current Chinese copies of Les Pauls are branded Gibson. The "NALS-48", aka 6 digit SN thing, was branded Tokai. Both of these products are fakes.
 
Good read ...

Now I am starting to wonder about the Tokai LP copy I bought 2 years ago that has NO serial number anywhere on it.
 
That was fun. So now that the 2005 "NALS-48" with the six digit serial number have supposedly been explained, how about an explanation of the 2004 model with a seven digit serial number? This also includes the NALS-302(LP Studio copy).

tunes008.jpg
 

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