Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com Forum Index
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

are edwards LP's chambered or not. which models
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com Forum Index -> Other
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
peacock72
Guitar God


Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tenon to body fit is amazingly tight. On both my Edwards, if the finish wasn't thin or translucent over the joint, I wouldn't be able to see the seam. Really, the joint couldn't possibly be any tighter!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cyberpunk409
Guitar God


Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peacock72 wrote:
The tenon to body fit is amazingly tight. On both my Edwards, if the finish wasn't thin or translucent over the joint, I wouldn't be able to see the seam. Really, the joint couldn't possibly be any tighter!


exactly what he said... check out the tenon on my edwards, if not for the translucent finish, you wouldn't know it was long



as for the maple being thin... well here's a clear picture of just how thick the maple cap is... (1.5cm at the thickest point in the pickup cavity)



I think that's the SAME thickness as on Gibson LP standards.

There are 2 reasons why the maple cap is thinner at the tone/volume pots than on other LP's
1. The Edwards has a "deep dish" carve (found on vintage Gibson LP's, but not current ones). This means thinner maple towards the edge binding of the guitar.
2. The 4 individual pot cavitities are drilled deeper than the control cavity is... i.e. 4 holes are drilled from the INSIDE of the control cavity towards the guitar top... leaving the wood maybe 0.3cm thin at that point. The following picture will make this clearer (note how the pots appear to be SUNKEN)




So in summary
- The maple cap on an Edwards is just as thick as a Gibsons
- The pots have less than half a centimetre of maple between them and the volume/tone knobs
- The long neck tenon is done so well that it is quite hard to see sometimes... as this pic helps to illustrate



Edwards guitars are built exceptionally well. These rumours are not helping their reputation I hope my pics have cleared things up for some of you
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
japanstrat
Guitar God


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry tudor I didn't explain it that well.
When I said no part of the tenon extending into the neck pickup cavity I meant it had no lip / tongue part.
btw the Tokai has got a great Maple top.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
japanstrat
Guitar God


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They really do route the hole for the pots deeper than most makers.
If the Maple top is about the same thickness as most other LP's then that makes it even harder to explain the 7.5 lbs Edwards light weight.

Until anyone can show otherwise you have to assume the Edwards are a solid body with no chambers or swiss cheese holes.
The Edwards I've seen look pretty good to me although I've never owned one.
If ESP is getting LP weights down to around 7.5 lbs with no chambering or swiss cheese holes I think Gibson would be interested in how they do it.
Gibson had to use chambering/swiss cheese holes to do it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
leadguitar_323
Guitar God


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 3534
Location: Brisbane Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson are more interested in making money so they source lesser quality wood. I read a story somewhere where it said the japanese had huge stockpiles of good quality wood and gibson had to buy some of it for their high end guitars. I don't know how much truth there is in that story but like i said earlier i have ATM 5 lp's and 2 are really heavy and 3 are much lighter. Mick
_________________
so many guitars....so little money...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
japanstrat
Guitar God


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Post from a member called burst on the les paul forum who is/was a Gibson employee, this is what he has to say about the weight-relief holes...

Originally posted by burst
We've been sitting here watching this thread unfold for some time now and decided we would put our two cents in. Several of us having over 100 years of combined service with Gibson have been discussing this issue, here where these wonderful guitars are made, along with you guys. Each of us share the same enthusiasm for the Les Paul as you do.....maybe even more so because it has become a way of life for us.

Over the years, this discussion has been dug up from its grave and revisited many times. Its kinda amusing to hear it all over again, the same statements, passion, defensive posturing, and love for the product. So, that being said, we'll give you the inside scoop for what its worth.

Weight relief was brought about simply to utilize the limited supply of quality mahogany. We only request and purchase the highest grade of mahogany. However, when you receive truck loads of thousands of board feet at a time, some of the mahogany might not be as light as we would like. The desire to have light weight wood has nothing to do with trying to achieve a certain sound. It was intended to lighten the load up on a musicians back. Gibson's no.1 complaint in the early 70's was "these guitars rock, but are way too heavy. We listened to the consumer, and instituded the weight releif still present today in the Les Paul Standard. The mahogany on the Les Paul std and the Les Paul Reissues come from the same forests, the same trees. Most of this wood is purchased by the same guy. The wood is processed to a body "blank" size and the lightest ones get sent to the Custom Shop for use. A Reissue will have a non-weight reliefed back, and you pay a premium for the costs associated with setting those backs apart. To keep the remainder of the mahogany backs from being too heavy, weight relief holes are added. This is an extra step in the process and adds cost. We wouldnt do it unless it was necessary. All of the mahogany is High grade, on all Lp Reissues and Lp Standards......weight is the only difference.

Through the years, Gibson has learned a lot about how wood affects the tone of a guitar. Regardless of what some people say, it has been measured so many times that the proof is undeniable. There is no more tonal difference between a weight reliefed back and a solid back than there is between the respective models themselves. You can take 10 Les Paul standards and the frequency output varies a negliable amount between them. The same is true for the Les Paul Reissue. If you take the two models head to head, you'll find some that match almost identically in output frequency, and some vary. Basically, there are many factors that play into how a guitar sounds. The grain tightness of the neck, the density of the wood, the fingerboard hardness and grain structure, the pickup variances, the length of wire used to solder the pots, the type of plating, gold/nickel/chrome. All of these and more make more of a difference in sound between units, when measured, than the weight relief does.

Both the Les Paul Standard and the Les Paul Reissue are wonderful guitars that still carry the Les Paul legendary sound. Artists play both models, some prefer one over the other. Thats what makes it such a great guitar. Every one is like buying a baseball glove......you try several on, but one just seems to fit you just right.

Everyone has an opinion and some people will defend their's as the "truth" no matter what. The fact is, this issue has been settled many years ago by a guy named Les Paul. He has been very involved in all of the innovations and changes over the years to make sure that we stayed "true to the course". He played a "log" that had no body.......and it sounded great.

There are guys here that play over 100 Les Pauls a day 5 days a week. They'll tell you they all vary in sound and always will.........wood is a wonderful thing. You gotta love it........its the best guitar in the world!

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=1337977
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
japanstrat
Guitar God


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only chambered guitar I've played was a Ibanez 59er from the mid 70s with a bolt on neck and it sounded pretty good through my 70s 100 watt Marshall.
Then there are the Greco chambered LPs.
I think you have to judge each guitar individually.
I'm sure some current chambered Gibsons sound pretty good.

If you want to get all scientific you can test the low pass and high pass (bandpass) filter cutoff frequencies. Imagine a string vibrating with no guitar body. Theorectically all the harmonics and the fundamental frequencies will be present by Fouriers thereom. Now introduce the guitar body and neck to the vibrating string and the body and neck really function as a filter letting some string frequencies be more dominant than others.
So the guitar wood is really a big filter.

Like the Gibson guy says above the output frequencies (tone) of chambered and solid guitars can be measured and compared but due to wood grain density and other things the tones of two guitars built the same way might be different but on average guitars built the same way would have tonal similarities.
It would be possible using electronics and acoustical engineering techniques to chamber or swiss hole a guitar with minimum output frequencies (tone) difference to a similarly made solid body guitar.

Gibson just doesn't put the swiss cheese holes anywhere they feel like it, they place them using engineering techniques so that they cause a minimum difference to a solid body tone.
Same for the chambered Gibsons. I've read that Gibson spent years on the research and testing so the difference to a solid body would be minimum. Gibson are really trying to emulate a solid body using these techniques.

Of course you can just build a chambered guitar using no science like the old Grecos and Ibanez's and they still might sound pretty good but maybe a bit different to a regular solid body, like maybe a cross between a Semi Acoustic and a LP.

Seeing the guitar body as a filter gets interesting when you put pickups into the picture because the pickups act like filters as well.
If you have pickups that are letting a lot of the high frequencies through to the output and the guitar body is not letting a lot of high frequencies get through to the output then you will have a weak high end and a weakened bottom end because the pickups are favouring the high frequencies and are not picking up the low frequencies much even though the guitar body is letting a lot of low frequencies through to the output.

This is why some pickups sound better in some guitars than others.
It's really a guitar body/pickups combination which both act as filters that mainly determine tone and there are too many variables involved to not have differences between individual guitars so you just have to experiment with different guitars and pickups to get a tone you like and that tone might not be the tone someone else wants.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
leadguitar_323
Guitar God


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 3534
Location: Brisbane Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi japanstrat, mate i wouldn't expect a gibson employee to say anything else I would expect him to defend the guitars he makes, and especially on a forum where everyone owns them. In saying that i totally agree that there would have to be some good chambered guitars out there and i don't necessarily think it is just the chambering that robs these guitars of tone actually i think the shoddy neck to body joins are more likely the culprit. They can say what they like about output frequencies, if what he is saying is true then they would all be great guitars and they are obviously not. I completely understand the way frequencies resonate and if you honestly think that the changes Gibson have made to their guitars over the years has been for the benefit of the player and not their bottom line you'd be sadly mistaken. The Japanese are replicating the original specs of the LP's for a very good reason, they were superior guitars.

Mick
_________________
so many guitars....so little money...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Stone Free
Guitar God


Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 91
Location: T E X A S

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: are edwards LP's chambered or not. which models Reply with quote

big-ace wrote:
basically which/ if any edwards LP models are chambered or weight relieved. which ar TOTALLY solid?


Coming through DFW airport two weeks ago, as my Edwards Page model was x-rayed, the tech said that it was solid.
_________________
Band - SOUL SHAKER
http://facebook.com/SoulShaker.Texas
James says "jam on ... "
TEXAS, USA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dann
I only know 3 chords


Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see the tenon!! yeah its real tight goes almost to the end of the cavity, finally filed down enough crap to see a decent outline
nice!
_________________
www.myspace.com/noarrowmusic
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
peacock72
Guitar God


Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: are edwards LP's chambered or not. which models Reply with quote

Stone Free wrote:
big-ace wrote:
basically which/ if any edwards LP models are chambered or weight relieved. which ar TOTALLY solid?


Coming through DFW airport two weeks ago, as my Edwards Page model was x-rayed, the tech said that it was solid.
Cool! That's good enough for me.

Last edited by peacock72 on Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peacock72
Guitar God


Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dann wrote:
I can see the tenon!! yeah its real tight goes almost to the end of the cavity, finally filed down enough crap to see a decent outline
nice!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
japanstrat
Guitar God


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry if I appear to be raving on, but I'm an Electronics Engineer and I can't help myself sometimes.
Just take a banjo for example.
Why does a banjo sound different to a guitar?
It's not really the strings so much it's the body and how the banjos body is acting as a filter on the string vibrations.
In the banjos case the body is like a drum and combining the string frequencies with a drum like body filter results in the banjo sound.
It's the same for guitars of course and with body type variations you will get tone variations.
"The banjo's distinctive sound comes because it combines the harmonic overtones from its vibrating string with the percussive overtones from its drum head."
http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/GeneralInterest/Harrison/Vibrations/Vibrations.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
leadguitar_323
Guitar God


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 3534
Location: Brisbane Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your ravings are welcome its one of the reasons that this forum is so informative.

Mick
_________________
so many guitars....so little money...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
japanstrat
Guitar God


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 879

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talking about Gibson they have gone Danish.
See what happens when a guitar company starts chambering guitars, they end up merging with an electronics company.

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Features/Gibson%20Guitar%20and%20TC%20Group%20to/

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080118/BUSINESS01/80118083

http://www.forbes.com/prnewswire/feeds/prnewswire/2008/01/18/prnewswire200801181333PR_NEWS_USPR_____LAF066.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com Forum Index -> Other All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Page 6 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group