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Edwards & Navigator St***s
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sneakyjapan
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Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 1871

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it would depend on the Tokai and F/USA for me. The top end Navigators... or Duncans... that I`ve seen are certainly on par with even the master builts sold in Japan... I`d gladly pay extra for a good MIJ, and have. In my opinion, F/USA has not been building the best strat types for some time, and I think there are other US builders making better guitars now too.
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sneakyjapan
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Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 1871

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tudor wrote:
The ESPARTO model of Navigator must be a rather low price model ... look at the Japan price of this one ...
http://www.j-guitar.com/sp/sea/view_detail/s13620143.html

... whereas the N-ST-300M model that Luis mentioned above has all the premium class specs we're used the navigators would have ... 1p ash body, lacquer etc. ... price - about 6 times more than the Esparto ... !!!

BTW - the N-ST-300R has an Alder body and Honduras mahogany fretboard and lacquer ...

Roger



heres another one...

http://www.digimart.net/gk_detail.do?instrument_id=DS00279885
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marcusnieman
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Joined: 22 May 2003
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Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnA wrote:
Having owned USA reissues and played quite a few custom shop USA Fenders I can say without a doubt that the high-end Tokai's, eg ST-80's are better guitars. Mainly the wood choice, some of the lovely figured ash tops you see on a Tokai ST-80 would only be seen on a Custom Shop strat costing much more. The lightest Strat I have ever owned is a Tokai.

In terms of build quality & sound there isn't really anything in it, but the vibe of an old guitar is something you dont get from a new one.


Well, that's kind of a broad statement to say that an ST 80 is better than all custom shop Fenders. I have an ST 80, a real 1965 Fender Strat and a custom shop relic 65 Strat. There's no guessing on this......the real 65 Strat is the lightest and best sounding Strat I've ever played in my life.

While my ST80 is amazing, light weight and toneful as you said, my 65 Custom shop is so close in fit, finish, feel and sound to the real deal that I'm blown away - I've done an A/B comparison between it and the original and the only difference is the weight. The output of the pickups are almost exactly the same, the neck profile is identical, three way switch, and so forth.

Personally, I try to compare a reissue to the real thing to determine it's accuracy - that's what I was after with mine. My ST80 stands on it's own. It's the best Tokai strat I own - without question. But it's not a better guitar than my reissue - they both stand on their own. If it's a matter of economics, absolutely the Tokai is a "better" guitar in terms of what you get for the money.
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ScottA
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Joined: 31 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marcusnieman wrote:
JohnA wrote:
Having owned USA reissues and played quite a few custom shop USA Fenders I can say without a doubt that the high-end Tokai's, eg ST-80's are better guitars. Mainly the wood choice, some of the lovely figured ash tops you see on a Tokai ST-80 would only be seen on a Custom Shop strat costing much more. The lightest Strat I have ever owned is a Tokai.

In terms of build quality & sound there isn't really anything in it, but the vibe of an old guitar is something you dont get from a new one.


Well, that's kind of a broad statement to say that an ST 80 is better than all custom shop Fenders. I have an ST 80, a real 1965 Fender Strat and a custom shop relic 65 Strat. There's no guessing on this......the real 65 Strat is the lightest and best sounding Strat I've ever played in my life.

While my ST80 is amazing, light weight and toneful as you said, my 65 Custom shop is so close in fit, finish, feel and sound to the real deal that I'm blown away - I've done an A/B comparison between it and the original and the only difference is the weight. The output of the pickups are almost exactly the same, the neck profile is identical, three way switch, and so forth.

Personally, I try to compare a reissue to the real thing to determine it's accuracy - that's what I was after with mine. My ST80 stands on it's own. It's the best Tokai strat I own - without question. But it's not a better guitar than my reissue - they both stand on their own. If it's a matter of economics, absolutely the Tokai is a "better" guitar in terms of what you get for the money.


Well said.

That's one of the best break downs on the whole "lawsuit guitar" thing that I've seen and I think it applies pretty generally.
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stratman323
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't referring to the new Fender US re-issues - the ones that start off with a poly undercoat. I was talking about the 82 to 87 or 88 US re-issues that were all nitro. The 86 models often used Fullerton bodies (mine does - different body shape on the contours) and were virtually handmade, as only a small number of US guitars were made in 86, and none at all in 85. In my opinion, these 80s reissues are as good as more recent Custom Shop models, except that you don't get the flamed maple necks that some of the better Time Machine models have. They are comparable in quality, playability and sound.

If the Springy ST80s are seriously as good as these, I really must get one with a rosewood board, though we very rarely see them for sale in the UK. There are probably too many stuck in cases owned by collectors who never play them. What a waste....

Mike
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marcusnieman
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Joined: 22 May 2003
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Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stratman323 wrote:
I wasn't referring to the new Fender US re-issues - the ones that start off with a poly undercoat. I was talking about the 82 to 87 or 88 US re-issues that were all nitro.
Mike


Bro, my 65 reissue is a 2003 and it's all nitro..........there's a difference between the Custom Shop reissues and the standard Fender USA specific year reissue models such as the 1962. Your earlier email I responded to called out the Custom Shop reissues specifically.

The early 80's Fender reissues are superb........they were the Custom Shop equivalents because they hadn't started doing Custom Shop reissues back then.
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JohnA
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stratman323 wrote:

If the Springy ST80s are seriously as good as these, I really must get one with a rosewood board, though we very rarely see them for sale in the UK. There are probably too many stuck in cases owned by collectors who never play them. What a waste....

Mike


My ST80 (far right) gets played reguarly! If you are ever 'up North' you're more than welcome to give her a spin!

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stratman323
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks very nice, though what I really really want is one in a metallic colour, ideally Lake Placid Blue. I assume they did the ST80s in LPB? Or even metallic green, like the ST55 I recently bought. The 80s were nitro finished, weren't they?

That's a kind offer, thanks. I may be "Up North" at some point, whereabouts are you?

Mike
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stratman323
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, could I raise one more question? I know this isn't the Fender forum, but you guys seem so much more knowledgeable. I have a 1994 Custom Shop 1960 Strat (complete with CS cert & early CS decal). I showed it to a friend yesterday as he said he might be interested in swapping it for his 83 Fullerton 62RI. Trouble is, he reckons that the finish on my CS feels like poly, and I have to admit he has a point.

I know that they were using nitro by 99 for the Time Machine series, but do any of you know if they would have used poly on the 94 models? It seems strange if they did.

Thanks,

Mike
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apmechling
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Joined: 25 Apr 2002
Posts: 39
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Navigators and Edwards... Reply with quote

Thanks for missing me, Luis ; )

I just got back from Madrid, Spain, and before that, Yokosuka, Japan. I was out of the US for 7 years and it is really strange being back where everyone speaks your native language! I am really excited to be with my 90+ guitars again though! For the last 2 years I had one guitar, my Seymour Duncan DS-200/M strat and that was it. I couldn't take anything else with me since they wouldn't pay for it to be shipped.
So it is like many Christmases all at once being able to play all my guitars again. I know, it's kind of ridiculous to have that many, and that's why I am selling out, trying to whittle them down to my favorite 10. That is HARD, though.

As far as Navigators and Edwards are concerned... the worst thing about the Edwards is the top finish... you first have this really nice satin nitro and THEN after you play it a while, it rubs off to shiny new poly underneath and looks hideous. Nothing you can do about that except wear the entire guitar's finish down, which is harder than you think.

The Edwards are great for players, and I love the relic models because you get a real lacquer finish and can see that the wood is better on those since the wood shows. They are great guitars on a budget.

But, I ended up getting a Navigator and there was just no comparison. Even the strats have appointments that are just crazy... like individual fret edge binding on a strat and/or on a tele... yep. I guess Fender did a few like this in the early 60's but it got too time-consuming and difficult so they stopped that practice. Well, Navigator did that on many of their earlier 2000s models. Even my '52 tele with a maple fretboard has this individual fret edge binding carved by hand up to meet the edges of each fret - talk about a smooth feel... no other company I have ever seen did that or does that now - not even Fender Master Grade guitars have that as far as I have seen.

But, the new Navigators are not like the early 2000s models. They bear the same model numbers in most cases, but have not been up to par with the earlier ones - like on the strats and teles, they now put the serial number on the back of the headstocks. Not stamped into the neck plate like the early ones. And the cool fret-edge binding I described on mine - they don't do that anymore either.

BTW, my Seymour Duncan DS-200/R (the blue one on my site) has this fret-edge bidning as well. Not standard for sure, and there are not many like that in existence. I have seen a lot of them. And I had a DS-280Pro a while back and that one didn't even have it - go figure.
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luis
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Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 2311
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice to read you again,Andrew!

I?m very tempted by Tokai ES-150J you have for sale,but I?m poor at this time

I agree with you about Navigator strats,I luckily own a NS-300M and it?s a fantastic strat,it sounds great and cuts through the mix,a very inspiring guitar and better than a F. Custom Shop no doubt.I?m vey excited with this guitar.My only concern is a so thin laquer finis,so that reliced veryeasy(I don?t care at all of course).
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stratman323
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Navigators and Edwards... Reply with quote

apmechling wrote:
But, the new Navigators are not like the early 2000s models. They bear the same model numbers in most cases, but have not been up to par with the earlier ones - like on the strats and teles, they now put the serial number on the back of the headstocks. Not stamped into the neck plate like the early ones.


Interesting to see this old thread resurected again. I guess one advantage of putting the serial number on the neck somewhere is that it's much harder to change or fake than if it's on the neckplate. What could be easier to change on a Strat/Tele than the neckplate? It is a pretty daft place for the serial number, it's just that we're all so used to it.

Moving back to the main subject of this thread, thanks for all the Edwards/Navigator info. Could I widen the discussion - what about Fernandes Strats & Teles? There have been a few vintage series and Revival guitars on eBay UK recently. Could anyone comment on how these compare to ESP/Edwards/Navigator/Tokais?
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snakehips
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 45
Location: England

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting stuff - I've an (ESP) Seymour Duncan Traditional Series Stratocaster from 1990 which is great. Beautiful grain, two piece body with an almost invisible join. I found it while searching for some SD SSL-1 pups on eBay! Bought it for a song, great guitar, neck's a bit plain to look at compared to the body, but plays really well with great tone too. Pics and some SD info at www.plankspankers.co.uk
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