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*Flawed Tokai part 2........*
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20 century boy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marcusnieman wrote:
What's up in these forums lately?

Just the arrival of supreme. Supreme received a bad Tokai, SUpreme is very upset at Tokai. Now Supreme decided that Tokai was crap, Everything with Tokai on it is crap, and they make pink color guitars!!!! Hahaha! Tokai is Bad!
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TSL
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't mind Supreme's venting, he showed pic's with real problems. I still think it possible Tokai didn't actually make that guitar, but I am an observer on the web, I wasn't there during any of the problems he had.

Would be nice if everyone could remain civil. I very much enjoy tqalking guitars with those around the world, but need no further conflict in my life.
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supreme
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Joined: 04 May 2006
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Location: The Lowlands

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

20 century boy wrote:
marcusnieman wrote:
What's up in these forums lately?

Just the arrival of supreme. Supreme received a bad Tokai, SUpreme is very upset at Tokai. Now Supreme decided that Tokai was crap, Everything with Tokai on it is crap, and they make pink color guitars!!!! Hahaha! Tokai is Bad!


This may be a joke for you, but the flawed Tokai is still with me almost 1 month after getting it......nothing has changed. I still got the flawed one and waiting for Bob to confirm a replacement. Not funny at all to me, maybe you would have laughed your socks off if it had happened to you. Strange kind of humor though, laughing at someone else's misery.

The guitar has been confirmed to be a real MIJ Tokai. Today I emailed Ishibashi about them dropping Tokai altogether. I asked them for some email addresses they could give me from Tokai Gakki because the 3 emails I found are not getting replied to for 3 weeks now. It seems no one else is trying to help so why not try Ishibashi then?
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riffpowers
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Joined: 05 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

supreme wrote:
20 century boy wrote:
marcusnieman wrote:
What's up in these forums lately?

Just the arrival of supreme. Supreme received a bad Tokai, SUpreme is very upset at Tokai. Now Supreme decided that Tokai was crap, Everything with Tokai on it is crap, and they make pink color guitars!!!! Hahaha! Tokai is Bad!


This may be a joke for you, but the flawed Tokai is still with me almost 1 month after getting it......nothing has changed. I still got the flawed one and waiting for Bob to confirm a replacement. Not funny at all to me, maybe you would have laughed your socks off if it had happened to you. Strange kind of humor though, laughing at someone else's misery.

The guitar has been confirmed to be a real MIJ Tokai. Today I emailed Ishibashi about them dropping Tokai altogether. I asked them for some email addresses they could give me from Tokai Gakki because the 3 emails I found are not getting replied to for 3 weeks now. It seems no one else is trying to help so why not try Ishibashi then?


Hi Supreme.
I've been reading these threads with interest.I've owned tokais in the past, a black 61 sg style and a MIK goldtop, all seemed fine.
Recently I started looking around for a p90 loaded junior style guitar.
The guys on here have been helpful and honest, out of the 2 guys I contacted one loved their guitar, the other pointed out a few issues and wasn't that impressed.I emailed bob for feedback, he said the guitar ws reviewed in guitarist and the reviewer liked it so much he bought one.I subsrcibe to guitarist, the review wasn't there, I checked the back issues, there isn't one anywhere, emailed bob, he didn't reply.
Now I find ishibashi (who are great, I've ordered maxon gear that you can't get over here from them) aren't stocking them anymore.Those guys are going about things the right way, if only everyone was so thorough!!
And now I see the total abortion that is you custom....

So to recap...inconsistant quality, main Japanese stockist won't stock them....non existant magazxine review...(maybe made up, maybe not..) absolute horror of a custom with absolutely horrible service with it...
Alarm bells ringing..
Consider it a lost sale.Was gonna buy a TJ65 and a special, not anymore, I bought a hamer instead.As soon as stuff like this gets into the public domain new custmers walk away pretty fast, just like I have.And I can afford to buy whatever I like luckily, but I was gonna go for tokai cos their tj65 model was closest to what I wanted.Had I like dit I would have bought another.

Supreme, I really hope you get sorted out.I feel really sorry for you and I know how annoyed and upset I would be in your situation.
You can file a small claim, it costs you money but in my experience the shop will want to avoid the hassle and expense of going to court and will settle with you.You won't get the money back for the claim, but you can take satisfaction in knowing that every time they send you a solicitors letter it costs them about ?200 a shot.If I were you can afford it I'd file a small claim and ask for the value of the custom, and any phonecalls you've made and all work you've had done on it.It'll be costly and embarrasing for the shop, they will settle out of court, and you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that you gave them a hard time.
And just think about the karma!!What goes around come around.Just think of all the people on the various forums reading this thinking the same as me......do you think that shop is ever gonna be able to sell another tokai??!!Nope!!!And do you think people are going to take Bob with a pinch of salt ??!!
No company can afford to mess its customer about.For every 1 that complains, 3 say nothing, tell all their friends who all vote with their feet.You've given them the valuable oppurtunity to put this mess right and prove themselves to customers everywhere, shame on them for not doing so.
The guitars can be as good or bad as they like, but whats the point without customers??!!!
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mgdew
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Joined: 29 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read all these posts, and observed from afar to this point.

Here is my 2p worth.

EVERY brand in the entire world suffers from things slipping past Q&A, that is life, we are humans and prone to errors.

In your example supreme, the problem lies in one place, and one place only, and that is directly with the dealer you purchased it from. It is their responsibility under the sales of goods act to clearly mark inferiorities and adjust prices accordingly, or if they are not willing to sell inferior products it should not have even been sold, but returned by them and dealt with by them with the UK distributor that supplied it to them. do not get me wrong, I sympathise that you have had an ordeal with your guitar, but if you are going to complain about Q & A on the guitar, then you are going to have to never buy anything from anybody ever again, because every single thing manufacturered at some point suffers from these issues.

I get a bit sick and tired of constantly hearing people bash the manufacturers, even when it comes to Q & A of gibsons, its talked about a lot and although there are issues with gibsons Q & A over the years, none the less the problem is that if you part with your cash in a shop, then that shop is responsible for the inital sale, if any defects are present there and then it is their responsiblity to deal with them.

So maybe its time to stop bashing Tokai, Gibson and every other manufacturer in the world for making mistakes, but perhaps expect some level of after sales care from the shop that take your money.

p.s for every 1 bad shop, there are hundreds of very good shops who are more than happy to deal with issues and resolve them to the satisfaction of the customer.

p.p.s This is not an attack at anyone or anything specific, it is purely my oppinion on the situation, and I do hope that you at some point get the service you should expect from the shop that you bought the guitar from.
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SGRocks
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Joined: 31 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again supreme, I hope it gets solved fast,I mean almost 1 month is just too much.Why not send it straight back to Tokai in Japan?
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supreme
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers riffpowers, appreciated. For the small claims I need to fly to the UK though a few times, I am in the Netherlands. Not an option at the moment.

mgdew, yes the dealer is to blame too, I gave them hell don't worry. But I will definitely not let Tokai off the hook, they built it and now it seems it is a re-occuring problem (see Ishibashi and some other members commenting on it).

SGrocks, if I send it back to Tokai in Japan, it won't go without some extra long deep scratches and additional paint, if you know what I mean. I am still waiting for Bob to confirm the replacement but my patience is pretty much up. If this weekend I have no confirmation, it is going back directly to the Tokia factory with some creative work on it by myself. They can hang it on their wall of shame while working on the other Tokais.
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mgdew
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

supreme wrote:

mgdew, yes the dealer is to blame too, I gave them hell don't worry. But I will definitely not let Tokai off the hook, they built it and now it seems it is a re-occuring problem (see Ishibashi and some other members commenting on it).


supreme, I am not into bashing people from experience and believe that everyone has a right to their own oppinion and can voice it freely on these forums, however your attitude towards the TOKAI brand seems completely attacking in nature.. EVERY brand has issues, I am not niave enough to think that TOKAI consistently make and ship 100% guitars, but the good ones we do get to see are definately worth taking at the price. Gibson and nearly every other guitar manufacturer in the world have had prolonged periods of shipping rubbish. so perhaps instead of the mentality you are putting onto the TOKAI brand, you should be concerting your efforts in my oppinion to blaming the real culprit, and that is the person who sold to you that piece of garbage, they are the only ones here who are actually legally obliged and have actually done something legally wrong.

Again, I sincerely hope that you get it sorted out to your satisfaction, but please can we stop all this 100% determination on badmouthing one particular brand, they are ALL as bad at each other and ALL have issues, lets actually deal with the real problem here in that the seller is responsible for your problem, and NO I am not a fanatic of TOKAI !!
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supreme
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can give my opinion about any brand if it is based on my experience and I do. If this had been another brand and I got a flawed one like this (and let's be honest, this guitar has MANY flaws, not just a few minor stuff) I would have a negative view about that brand too. I also told you I gave the dealer hell. What do you want me to do more, surely not kill him?

I am not biased to a certain brand, really I couldn't give a sheet about any brand. But I got a flawed Tokai so I am not going to talk about Fenders, Armanis or Porsche 911s. It says Tokai on the headstock so Tokai at the moment means POS to me. Maybe in the future that will change, maybe not. You or anyone else doesn't have to take that personal.

Like I said before, you get burned once, then you automatically associate it with something negative. Nothing anyone can say will change that. Especially not the stuff I have gotten thrown into my face here the last few weeks, in fact those comments made me grow even colder towards Tokai.

We'll see what happens.

*edit* Isnt it nice that some people here seem to have started a petition to get me banned. ned just emailed me about it. They make personal attacks and I must shut up or get banned? Right.
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luis
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just buy a LS320 and you?ll be happy for the rest of your life.

Please I?m tired of this.If I wrote a list with some of reverended brand X that was not good and what price asked to pay!!!!

My best guitars are a Tokai and a Navigator replicas,period!
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mgdew
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

supreme, I make no apologies, nor condone other forum members behaviour, my comments are simply there to try and understand where the blame lies, I am not loyal to any particular brand, I play what I like, even if it is not considered to be good.

I am not attacking you personally, or anyone else who has an oppinion on tokai, I am simply stating the fault here lies with the actual shop who sold it, as ALL manufacturers push out sheet from time to time, it is the responsibility of the shop not to take any money for an inferior product, it actually begins to be fraud in this instance.

as I have said many times before, I hope you get it sorted by whichever means, but in this example bashing TOKAI itself ON AND ON actually is not legally fair, as they have done nothing illegal. I would happily say the same if the guitar were ANY other brand.

I personally welcome well articulated oppinion, that after all is what forums are about, discussion, but when the same message is being replayed and actually LEGALLY is not the fault of person but lies with another it gets rather boring, I hope however that if you take this to TOKAI in Japan that they will help you 100% to help cover for the fact that you have been dealt with extremely poorly by their UK distributer and a shop that he provides tokais to.
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supreme
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luis, you buy me a LS320 and I am OK with it. With a lot of struggle I could afford a LC70-80 through trade even.

mgdew, you are repeating yourself too now. I got your point from the beginning and I disagree, no offense.
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OrvilleBoy
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Joined: 20 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey cheer up guys... supreme might have offended people but maybe it's not deliberate, and more thru frustration and anger

though ive not owned enough guitars or played enough to develope brand loyalty, its probably not a bad thing, and shouldnt be denied.? it's like adopting someone/something as family, i think. sure, u stick by your family, and u'd stand up for them... and if they make mistakes u'd forgive them no matter wat... but it's unhealthy if u ignore these mistakes.... right!?

if we're all going to get along all happy-like... let's be frank about tokai's mistakes (distributors / manufacturers etc)... get it noted, and move on, stop stalling on it guys! this is another "IS X CRAP OR NOT??" debate!

the last week or so has been about this stuff! and blaming people!!! the poor fella got a crap guitar and is angry... i'm sure if it was his 5th tokai after 4 superb ones , his tone would be different. haha actually i dunno... if it was me, my tone would be different anyway... i'm a forgiving person! then again the shop dude lied to him and then there was bob etc..... grhh see how messy it gets????

cheer up guys... lets just be thankful we're not in his shoes with a crap guitar and no refund!!! meanwhile let him keep us updated on his progress, let's see how it is handled.. it is the action(s) taking place that is more interesting than us bickering.
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riffpowers
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is everybody on supreme's case???
None of this is his fault, and wouldnt't you want to know if there was a shop selling this crap so you could avoid it??
Where else is he gonna go for tokai info and help than the tokai forum??
Put yourself in his shoes....if you'd bought that as your 1st tokai wouldn't you be pissed off about it??!!
Give the guya break, and while you're at it give him some help too.
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mgdew
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm happy to apologise to Supreme if my posts have been misconstrued or interpreted as 'having a go at him', that certainly was not my intention and I have said throughout them that I hope he gets a satisfactory conclusion to his problems.

I totally agree that supreme has been dealt with poorly not only by the shop, but it would appear by the UK distributor of TOKAI.
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