MK II pickups, harsh bright and brittle?

Hi all,

I ve been moaning for the last month about my amp (Laney LC30II) beeing bright/brittle and harsh in the treble side, and looked into getting valves/speaker etc.

But then again i came back and thought that maybe the stock Gotoh MKII pups might be the cullprit for this. Any ideas or thoughts?

I was thinking of swapping them for a pair of BKP Mules instead of changing valves/speaker in my Laney.

Looking forward to your views
Yannis

Hey math,

I have no experience with those pickups but I did play through one of those Laney's and didn't like it at all. I thought it was rather brittle sounding - no balls whatsoever. A Peavey Delta Blues sounded like God in comparison.

Jim

An old Marshall tube head can also be described as bright or brittle. Luckily for old Jim Marshall, they picked the right speakers to go with their amp designs: Celestions which have a high end roll off. So you are right to consider speakers. When you match the wrong speakers, an amp can sound bad. I had just the opposite thing happen. 10 years ago I bought a Valvestate head so that I didn't have to drag my valuable old tube head to gigs. When played through my old Marshall cabinets the Valvestate didn't have enough high end --- because the Celestions' high end is rolled off and the Valvestate had a flatter freq response. I couldn't get enough treble out of the amp. I had to buy a Valvestate cabinet for it.

So I would ask you a couple questions: What kind of cabinet/speakers are you using on that Laney? What kind of tone controls does the amp have? I guess you haven't been able to dial in a decent sound.

Also, before putting money into new pickups, try out the guitar in some other amps. Use a friend's amp or take the guitar to your local music store and try it through their amps. Pretend that you're amp shopping. I suppose you could end up trading that Laney in on something you like better!

Ok the Laney is an LC30II.

It has TAD tubes all around (chinese) and a Celestion Seventy-80 speaker.

I was told to replace the tubes with JJ ECC83S or ECC803S and EL84S.

I was also told to get an Eminence Speaker : Pvt.Jack, Governor, GB12 or L121.

That would rectify the cheap speaker/tube thing going for the LC30II.

But i plugged in a PRS SE Tremonti Singlecut in my amp, and it sounded smoother than my LP (and the LP smoked the PRS in general tone and playability) hence i started wondering about the pickups.

Yannis

I found the MK IIs brittle harsh, overly bright (and sterile sounding) too. Swapped 'em out for A Duncan 59 neck and a DiMarzio VHot PAF bridge and it's much better.

I think a pickup swap may be in order.

PoorMan said:

I found the MK IIs brittle harsh, overly bright (and sterile sounding) too. Swapped 'em out for A Duncan 59 neck and a DiMarzio VHot PAF bridge and it's much better.

I think a pickup swap may be in order.

Click to expand...

So its not just me thanks man for the feedback!

math2014 said:

PoorMan said:

I found the MK IIs brittle harsh, overly bright (and sterile sounding) too. Swapped 'em out for A Duncan 59 neck and a DiMarzio VHot PAF bridge and it's much better.

I think a pickup swap may be in order.

Click to expand...

So its not just me thanks man for the feedback!

Click to expand...

I think you'll see a marked improvement with a pickup swap--especially with BKP Mules. That'll make all the difference in the world.

Despite loving my ES-120, it did sound a little brittle with my Laney LC15R. It had the standard valves in place and un upgraded Jensen P10R speaker. When using an Epi Dot with Kent Armstrong PAFs, it sounded fine as it did with the Greco Les Paul and an Ibanez 2457. Maybe it is the pickups with that particular amp...

However, I'm now using NI's Guitar Rig 2 as my amp for the next few months (university beckons so I'm stockpiling the cash now with the promise of a new handbuilt amp once I graduate in 2007) and the pickups on the ES-120 are the best going into the computer. I'm using a PreSonus TubePre as a DI box, sticking the gain at 0 and the Drive through the valve at 12 o'clock and it does sound very good coming out through my monitors. As I'm not gigging for a while, this setup will do me fine, maybe once I get back to a proper amp I'll consider switching them out for Bare Knuckle pickups, almost certainly the Stormy Mondays.

Andy.

hi Math,

i have the same guitar as u if i am not mistaken math LS85Q??... anyway if it aint the same model i do have the same pups. the vintage mark 2 pups.... and i play thru a jcm2000 tsl 100w head with a laney 4x12 cab which i installed some celestion vintage 30 speakers in to the cab.... and i get all the sounds i have ever wanted from a guitar with this setup...

the first love rock that i had had seth lover sh55's pups and i hated the sound that they produced thru my amp, the stock vintage mk2s are way better suited for my style thats for sure.... i would definetly go for a speaker change as IMO the stock pups in these tokais are great.......

i also have a friend who has a Laney LC30mk2 amp and he only has an epiphone les paul standard with some dimarzio pickups im unsure which ones it is he has but i can find out for u when i see him next,.... and the sound he gets with his laney is awesome, and his amp is totally stock he hasnt changed the speakers or nothing....



Dave

Thefairway said:

Despite loving my ES-120, it did sound a little brittle with my Laney LC15R. It had the standard valves in place and un upgraded Jensen P10R speaker. When using an Epi Dot with Kent Armstrong PAFs, it sounded fine as it did with the Greco Les Paul and an Ibanez 2457. Maybe it is the pickups with that particular amp...

However, I'm now using NI's Guitar Rig 2 as my amp for the next few months (university beckons so I'm stockpiling the cash now with the promise of a new handbuilt amp once I graduate in 2007) and the pickups on the ES-120 are the best going into the computer. I'm using a PreSonus TubePre as a DI box, sticking the gain at 0 and the Drive through the valve at 12 o'clock and it does sound very good coming out through my monitors. As I'm not gigging for a while, this setup will do me fine, maybe once I get back to a proper amp I'll consider switching them out for Bare Knuckle pickups, almost certainly the Stormy Mondays.

Andy.

Click to expand...

hey Andy i see that u are preamping your signal before going into your soundcard to use native instruments gutiar rig 2... i only have a lead that goes from my guitar straight into the mic input on my soundcard.... i still get a pretty decent sound with this great piece of software (im sure we have disscused this piece of kit on another thread if im not mistaken) but i have noticed that with some of the presets in guitar rig 2 i get this god aweful hissing which when u start playing it dissapears but i am pretty sure that it shouldnt be there in the first place... i have tried a couple of different leads only to get the same problem...

basically what i want to know is that if i go thru a D.I box or a little valve preamp first will this get rid of these horrid sounds????


sorry if this question seems silly but i just want to get the best possible sounds that i can thru guitar rig 2 as its probably the most authentic sounding piece of amp modelling gear i have used... even better than line 6 stuff.... although there arent as many amps to model the ones that are available are pretty accurate to the real thing.... and all the effects pedal emulators are awesome to.... i just need to get myself a footcontroller so that i can use the cry baby and the digitech whammy in realtime........


thanks in advance to anyone that can help me with this.... and sorry for hijacking the thread instead of creating another one.....

i just seen fairways post mentioning guitar rig 2 so i thought i would try and find my answers here......



Dave

I've always found Laney LCs to be very warm and full sounding (the clean channel is much closer to Vox than Fender in my opinion) when the EQ is set flat. Even my two current Laneys (TT20 and TT50) have never sounded harsh or brittle and they've probably got more top end than the LCs. That said, my ES-100 is stock and so are the amps, so who knows..?

Guitar Rig talk:

Dave, what soundcard do you have? If the input isn't designed for guitar level signals then you will get some hissing. Originally I was using the Insert on a Yamaha MG10/2 mixer (guitar into mixer channel--->out via Insert-->into input 1 on my M-Audio Delta 44). There wasn't much, if any, hiss with this but the signal did sound a bit rubbish (it reminded me of the old Behringer V-Amp 2 I had, awful digital sound!) It was playable and sounded good but I thought I could do better. With the valve equiped PreSonus TubePre, I've got it nailed, I'm very happy with the improvement in sound. I picked mine up for ?40 on Ebay and it's worth paying little more than a bog standard DI box which will be about ?25. Going through the TubePre into the Tweed model is simply gorgeous and the Vox model sounds superb.

GR2 rules. I'd like to try the new version of Amplitube ut for my ears, GR2 is the best digital emulation yet. That goes for software and for hardware. POD? Who needs it?


Laney talk:

I really don't know why the ES-120 didn't mesh with the Laney amp. It went fine with DeArmond Goldtone pickups, Kent Armstrong PAFs, Greco PAFs, Ibanez Super 70 PAFs... it just didn't bond with the ES-120 PAFs. Each to their own I guess, mass production amps will have their variability factor too as anything will.

Andy.

hmm,

Loverocksrule, man if you can play with your LS85Q on the LC30II it would be very interesting as this is my setup.


Schocker, i would be very interested into talking about Laneys with you man... especially for the TT series (i lust about a TT50H ).

Yannis

get rid of the chinese tubes at all costs. This is your problem. Good luck.

brad347 said:

get rid of the chinese tubes at all costs. This is your problem. Good luck.

Click to expand...

so are TAD that bad?

BTW, my amp occasionally does a crackling/popping sound and i dont know if its valves or house-AC related :roll:

Thefairway said:

Guitar Rig talk:

Dave, what soundcard do you have? If the input isn't designed for guitar level signals then you will get some hissing. Originally I was using the Insert on a Yamaha MG10/2 mixer (guitar into mixer channel--->out via Insert-->into input 1 on my M-Audio Delta 44). There wasn't much, if any, hiss with this but the signal did sound a bit rubbish (it reminded me of the old Behringer V-Amp 2 I had, awful digital sound!) It was playable and sounded good but I thought I could do better. With the valve equiped PreSonus TubePre, I've got it nailed, I'm very happy with the improvement in sound. I picked mine up for ?40 on Ebay and it's worth paying little more than a bog standard DI box which will be about ?25. Going through the TubePre into the Tweed model is simply gorgeous and the Vox model sounds superb.

GR2 rules. I'd like to try the new version of Amplitube ut for my ears, GR2 is the best digital emulation yet. That goes for software and for hardware. POD? Who needs it?


Laney talk:

I really don't know why the ES-120 didn't mesh with the Laney amp. It went fine with DeArmond Goldtone pickups, Kent Armstrong PAFs, Greco PAFs, Ibanez Super 70 PAFs... it just didn't bond with the ES-120 PAFs. Each to their own I guess, mass production amps will have their variability factor too as anything will.

Andy.

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Andy i just have a soundbalster audigy 7.1 soundcard so i am presuming tha this is my problem... soundblaters are great for games and stuff but for audio recording i have been told by many ppl that they are no use for these purposes


im gonna go out and buy a tube pre amp and see if this solves my problem coz i really love this software!!!!!!

and if all fails ther then its ognna have to be a real high end soundcard thats designed for these purposes....





Dave

High end doesn't have to mean expensive in this case. I've got a two-PC setup, PC1 is my audio PC with the Delta 44, PC 2 has a SOundblaster PLatinum with the Live Drive (six years old now!) and I can get GR2 to work with both. Providing you find decent drivers from the Soundblaster, it will run decently. From memory, I think the 1/4 inch socket on the Soundblaster is unbalanced. Soundblasters aren't useless, the like of Kieran Hebden aka Four Tet have released albums made with just a PC and a Soundblaster so you can get very good results out of it. However, for very intense applications, and GR2 certainly falls into that category, I find it a little inflexible. The fixed sample rate is also a pain in the arse.

I'd wholeheartedly recommend the Delta 44 card for ease of use, ease of installation and absolutely no problems configuring it with my software. I bought it secondhand from a guy in the UK when I was living in Toronto. It's been in and out of three different PCs now, flown over 12,000 miles and still doesn't muck up. You should be able to pick one up new for about 100 quid. I prefer PCI cards to USB ones, something about USB worries me with audio.

What tube pre are you thinking of going for? After reading the Guitarist review of the new Matamp First Lady, I really want one of those now! Where's a free 600 quid when you need it?!?

Andy.

math i have the same axe as u but i dont own the LC30 laney amp myself its a freidnd that has one but i could take my axe round to his house and let u know what it thought of the overall sound...

but remember we both may not like the sounds that we hear u might be wanting a totally different tone from me.... i go for that marshall classic rock tone on my jcm2000head crunch channel and on the lead channel i go for a more modern metal sound.....

but i will certainly take my axe round to my friend who has the laney amp and give it a go just for u....




Dave

Thefairway said:

High end doesn't have to mean expensive in this case. I've got a two-PC setup, PC1 is my audio PC with the Delta 44, PC 2 has a SOundblaster PLatinum with the Live Drive (six years old now!) and I can get GR2 to work with both. Providing you find decent drivers from the Soundblaster, it will run decently. From memory, I think the 1/4 inch socket on the Soundblaster is unbalanced. Soundblasters aren't useless, the like of Kieran Hebden aka Four Tet have released albums made with just a PC and a Soundblaster so you can get very good results out of it. However, for very intense applications, and GR2 certainly falls into that category, I find it a little inflexible. The fixed sample rate is also a pain in the arse.

I'd wholeheartedly recommend the Delta 44 card for ease of use, ease of installation and absolutely no problems configuring it with my software. I bought it secondhand from a guy in the UK when I was living in Toronto. It's been in and out of three different PCs now, flown over 12,000 miles and still doesn't muck up. You should be able to pick one up new for about 100 quid. I prefer PCI cards to USB ones, something about USB worries me with audio.

What tube pre are you thinking of going for? After reading the Guitarist review of the new Matamp First Lady, I really want one of those now! Where's a free 600 quid when you need it?!?

Andy.

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yeah Andy i use the asio4all driver for my guitar rig 2 and i get real good latency with that driver with my soundblaster... but u are right i hear a lot of good things about those delta soundcards.......

Yannis, I'm happy to help if I can.

I'll give you a bit of background regarding my amp history so hopefully you can get an idea of my tastes in tones. I've always loved the classic Marshall crunch and drive and my formative years were spent using a 12 watt solid-state Marshall combo (with reverb!). That amp found its way onto many of my recordings (even as a processor for vocals and keyboards...well, it worked, so who's counting..?). The drive especially was good.

From the 1990s until last year, I had Fender combos in form or another; great clean sound, as you'd expect, but that was about it. The last Fender I had was a Deluxe Reverb reissue, which is a classically beautiful amp but I was beginning to get fed up with not getting a decent drive from it. I appreciate that Fenders aren't necessarily considered the obvious choice for driven sounds but frequently I'd read something like "ah, just stick a TubeScreamer in front of it and you'll be well away." Trouble is, I'd had a TubeScreamer for years and after ten minutes of initial pleasure, my ears would adjust and I'd realise that actually it didn't sound so great with the Fender after all. Also, the DR did not suit humbucker guitars, or at least not in the way I like.

I began a quest for an amp that would deliver what I had in my head as 'the classic Marshall sound'. One might expect the obvious solution to be a Marshall. However, after a great deal of research, it became evident that Marshalls don't tend to sound like I want them to! Especially not the latest DSL and TSL series. Unfortunately, the JCM800s of legend only tend to deliver in specific circumstances and the clean channel isn't that great..."Hey, it's a Marshall!" I hear you say..."What do you expect?!"

I took my guitars to many shops to try many amps. I even waited for the Traynor YCV50 to arrive in the UK, famed as it is on many forums for its "Fender cleans and Marshall drive" combination. Well, EL34s... the specs had potential! And I was tempted.

However, a Laney TT50 I'd heard in passing at another shop kept sneaking into my thoughts. I went back and they demonsrated it for me; in so doing, I noticed that it never sounded bad. Normally, you fiddle with an amp to try and get a few good sounds...your desired clean, your preferred overdrive, etc...in this journey, you generally find you're not enamoured with some of the tones en route (Boogies are notorious for this..."all the tones are there, you've just got to find them!", my Boogie-owning friend was told on many occasions as his heavy and angry-looking box on wheels continued to produce harsh and gritty noises). The TT went through all manner of cleans - warm, Voxy tones to bright Fenderish ones - before the second channel was selected. Smooth, warm crunch...increase the drive, yes, good...it kept on delivering. The third 'lead' channel...well, it was pretty similar to channel two until the boost was kicked in but then it was a great highly driven tone.

Needless to say, I decided that a TT50 would be the way to go!

However, before I got one, I gave in to tempation and acquired a TT20 on eBay. This is a single channel combo with the basic character of the 50 but in a smaller package (it's also switchable from 8 watts to 18, which is useful for recording). I struck it lucky a month or two later when a TT50 combo came up in the classified ads (I happened to look there after working out how infrequently they appeared on eBay...kind of never in the UK!). I chanced upon the ad the day it appeared and was on the phone as soon as was decent for a Sunday! The chap was selling it after a few months of next to no use as he'd been offered a great deal on a...erm, Boogie!! Well, his loss was my gain (excuse the pun)...

One of the great things about the TTs is that they sound great with both single coils and humbuckers. The only pickup that didn't win me round through the TTs was the P-90 but I never got used to them anyway...

Now, before I finish this lengthy late-houred rant, I should say that the 50 watt option is a good one for the TT as opposed to the 100 but if you're going to get the head rather than the combo, beware of which cab you match it with. My Boogie-owning friend acquired a Cornford 2x12 cab and demo'd a TT50 head through it; the results were disappointing, apparently. Laney recommend their TT 4x12 and I'd be tempted to take their advice or buy the combo. However, you of course should check all this out for yourself.

I have not found an amp that does what I want as well as the TT and I'm a fussy so-and-so!

Please feel free to ask anything you want to know and I'll try to be more concise than I've been in this gone-3 a.m. rambling account...