meanpeoplesuck1
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- Jul 3, 2004
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On my wanderings I came across this site, I'll post the link + the info in case the site shuts down for some reason.
http://www.orangeguitar.com/index.htm
BURNY
Background of Burny
Let us not get confused. Burny and Fernandes belong to the same entity. It started with Fernandes in the 70's that made Fender replicas. The brand Burny was later started by Fernandes as the division that made Gibson replicas. To date, both Fernandes and Burny are still making guitars just like their Tokai conterparts.
When it began in the 70's, Fenandes did not face any problems with copyright issues. This only surfaced after a decade sometime around the mid 80's when Fender and Gibson felt that their empire was threatened. To avoid the copyright war, Fernandes began to make changes to certain parts of their design like truss rod cover, shape etc.
Changes to Fender Copies
These workmanship done by Fernandes extended to both Strat and Tele copies. After the lawsuit threats arrived, Fernandes change their headstock shapes completely. The rare old Fender copies that can be found are extremely detailed. These old vintage copies were called the ?Revival? series. This name was given because they were essentially reviving the old classic Fenders. The headstock logo was design such that from a distance it looked just like a vintage Fender. The saddles were stamped, instead of the word "Fender" the "F.S.R.G." alphabets took its place. These alphabets stand for Fernandes Sound and Research Group.
Gibson Copies
As for the Burny?s, the LP models were given the name ?Super Grade? instead of ?Les Paul.? The wording were crafted to look just the words "Les Paul". However, the most part of the design stayed the same. E.g., angle ration between body and neck, curves on the maple top, and even the open book design on the headstock.
The Burny Super Grade Les Paul?s have been reported by many recording and gigging professionals as ?the best? clone of the real classic 50?s and 60?s Les Paul?s. They say the feel is identical and especially enjoy how Burny focused on making really fat necks on their Standards. Some go as far as claiming that these copies matches neck to neck with a vintage Les Paul - which cost around US$30,000.
The Different Burny Series
Burny models that with RLG-XX. The XX were numbers that indicated the guitar series. The bigger number means the better the guitar in terms of sound and finishing qualities. Take the LP Standard copy for example, there are the RLG-45, RLG-55, RLG-70, RLG-90 etc, the best being the "Super Grade" model made in Japan .There are some made in Korea which doesn't make the cut, so do be careful when you go in search.
About Burny and Fernandes pickups
Amongst all the different lawsuit copies, Burny and Fernandes have the best pickups. Fernandes had their L-5000, L-5000 Vintage II, and L-5001 single coil pickups, while the Burny model Les Paul?s got the famous VH-1 pickups, that have extraordinary Gibson-like tone. The only reason why they have come this far in their tone is because of the timeless effort they have put in R&D.
Serialization
The older Fernandes guitars do have serial numbers on occasion, and can be found on the neck plates of the Stratocasters of the Revival series, but otherwise, Burny and Fernandes didn?t often use serial numbers. Dating a Burny or Fernandes can be loosely done by looking at the truss rod cover. The Gibson bell-shaped covers are found on 1970?s to early 1980?s models. The bell-shape cover with thin white band and ridges sticking out from the side are found on mid-1980s to early 1990?s models.
Burny Today
As mentioned, Burny is still making these guitars. Some of these are manufactured in Korea and China. You can tell a Korean/China model by the shape of the truss cover ? it has a palace-shape and 3 screws.
Between the Korean and China made pieces, many believe the Korean model is slightly above the notch. But this, in my opinion is hard to tell. Ultimately, the Japanese made pieces are still the models to go for.
The old ?lawsuit? style models are very rare to find nowadays, and are highly collectible. Even in Japan, prices are double of what they were 2 years ago due to collector interest all over the world.
ORVILLE
Background of Orville
Orville if you do not already know is the name of the founder of Gibso. Orville started in 1984. When Gibson saw that they had the potential to make copies like that others that started the Fender copies, they followed Fender's foot steps in commissioning them to make lower, more affordable grades of Gibson. Their factory was located in the FujiGenGakki plant along side many other famous Japanese brands.
Orville actually carries 2 different names. One is just the word Orville and the other is Orville by Gibson. So the million dollar question anyone would ask is - what is the difference??
Quality difference between Orville and Gibson
As far as everything under the sun is concern, they are both the same. The one and only difference is that Orville uses Japanese made pickups, where as Orville by Gibson uses original Gibson USA PAF 57 Classics pickups. However, there are some out there that claims Orville by Gibson also uses original Gibson hardware like bridge, tailpiece etc.
These are excellent axes. There are many out there who believe that they match the quality of Gibson or even surpass their standards. So, when Gibson wanted them to make "lower" grades of Gibson guitars, it was actually a benefit to those who cannot afford the originals and those who do not care about brand names or logo.
Orville necks are slimmer than their lawsuit counterparts. Their neck width is somewhere between '59 and '60 or like a slim '60 neck. There is no chunky neck among them.
Serialization
Through the serial number, you can find out the production year and month of the guitar. This is done using the serial numbering method. Some of the Orville by Gibson have a letter beginning the serial number which correspond to the month of production, i.e, A : January, B : February, C : March etc. But again, not all their guitars have such serialization. Those made from 1984-1985 have smaller serial numbers of 5 digits.
Guitars made from 86-present have 6 digits. The first digit corresponds to the year of thed ecade that it was made. So the problem arises when you try to identify guitars made in 88 and 98 because both would have serial starting with 8.
You probably would like to note that in the mid 90's some guitars were actually made in Korea. These are identified by the letter "K" that starts on their serial numbers. The other thing about these Korean made Orvilles are that the serial numbers in sticker form. Hence if you find an Orville with no serial number, it is likely a Korean made with the serial sticker removed.
Orvilles evetually started their production in Korea due to an increase in demand. The natural question would be - are the quality the same. The answer is a straight - NO. So do be careful when you do your purchase. Don't let anyone try to convience you that their quality is the same.
Epiphone takes over
Subsequently, in the later part of the 90's Gibson stopped commissionine Orville to make lower grades guitar and started Epiphone. In this season, all knowledge and skill of making these copies were transferred from Orville to the guys in Epi.
But it seems quite clear that Epi did not do a good job in doing the copies, though they were ok in the beginning. Orville continued with their copies and to this day, I feel Epi does not come close to Orville's Standard. My advice? Put your money in an Orville though it cost a couple of hundreds more.
If you have done your research enough, you will not need me to tell you that the guitar market has treated Orville as a collector's item. These guitars are rare and it's price are escalating due to collector's interest. Don't be Surprised if you find them close to the price of a Gibson.
GRECO
Background of Greco
Greco is one of the pioneers of these lawsuit guitar makers. They have been making guitars since the early 1960's at the Fiji-genGakki plant. However, note that some Fender copies were made in the Matsumoku plant prior to 1967.
During this period, Greco made their own series of guitars, but in the early 1970's, they got into making replicas of original Fenders and Gibsons. In the beginning, their work on these replicas were mediocre due to lack of proper knowledge and materials. But by 1974 or so, their standard of making these copies escalated as they acquired correctly styled hardware. To top that, their craftsmanship were excellent.
In no time, Greco made more clone models of original Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker, Gretsch, Zemaiti, lbanez, (and other brands) than all other Japanese company combined. In terms of quality, skill and knowledge, they beat Tokai to the lawsuit race by at least 5 years.
The birth of Fender Japan
Eventually, as the company found that the demand for their popular replicas grew and that the size of the production was getting too large, they relinquished their Stratocaster division to Fender Japan in late 1981. By 1982, Greco Stratocasters became Fender JV Stratocasters, then later MIJ and CIJ Stratocasters. These guitars were made by the same guys who made the Greco "Sparkle Sound," "Spacey Sound," "Sparkle Sound," and "Super Real" Stratocasters from 1977-1981.
The death of Greco's copy
Greco still retained the business of selling great Gibson clones and other brand knockoffs of extraordinary high quality up until 1989. After that, the pressure to ?cease and desist? production of copyright-infringing designs took its toll on Greco and they decided to change their headstocks and logos to avoid a confrontation with the American manufacturers. No longer will ?lawsuit? models of exact Gibson and Fender clones be made by Greco.
The different series of Greco
Greco copies are becoming extremely rare and demand gets higher as time passes for these vintage collectibles. The best series of Greco by far are the ?Super Real? (made in 1980 only) and ?Mint Collection? (made from 1981-1990) models, which were made to amazing likeness to original Fenders and Gibson?s. Greco?s 1977-1979 clones are very nice, too, but many have hardware and specs that don?t match up with the Gibson and Fender classic designs.
Serialization
Greco guitars are fairly easy to date. The letter that (may) begin the serial number corresponds with the month of production, and the next 2 digits tell the year. For example: E804235 would be a May, 1980 ?Super Real? model, production number 4,235. Sometimes, Greco didn?t use letters and only numbers, and even separated the first digit from the rest on occasion. When the first digit is separated, it is likely a 1980?s model; the separated digit corresponding to the year of the 1980?s in which it was made.
If there is no serial number stamped into the wood (not on a sticker), then it was made in Korea.
TOKAI
Background of Tokai
Tokai started their lawsuit business in the 70's. Amongst all the lawsuit guitars, Tokai is the most widely known. But this is not because it is more superior, but because they were good at their marketing strategy. Furthermore, they are the only company that market their guitars aggressively beyond the Japanese borders.
They made their move towards the American and UK markets. This is why you will hear many in the west talk about Tokai but less of Burny and Greco. Orville however is quite well known in the States.
What's in a Tokai?
Unlike all the other Japanese make, Tokai do not have their own pickups but uses Dimarzio on their LPs. In my opinion, Tokais are good copy, but are over-rated. Brands like Greco, Orville and Burny are just as good, if not better than Tokais (depending on models). Hence, you will probably find Tokai costing more than their lawsuit counterparts of equal quality.
Tokai Registry
The reason I have very little write up on Tokai is because you can probably find 1st class information at the Tokai Registry. Hence there is really no point for me to do a 2nd rated job here. What I think I should do is really give a 3rd party opnion on these axes instead.
http://www.orangeguitar.com/index.htm
BURNY
Background of Burny
Let us not get confused. Burny and Fernandes belong to the same entity. It started with Fernandes in the 70's that made Fender replicas. The brand Burny was later started by Fernandes as the division that made Gibson replicas. To date, both Fernandes and Burny are still making guitars just like their Tokai conterparts.
When it began in the 70's, Fenandes did not face any problems with copyright issues. This only surfaced after a decade sometime around the mid 80's when Fender and Gibson felt that their empire was threatened. To avoid the copyright war, Fernandes began to make changes to certain parts of their design like truss rod cover, shape etc.
Changes to Fender Copies
These workmanship done by Fernandes extended to both Strat and Tele copies. After the lawsuit threats arrived, Fernandes change their headstock shapes completely. The rare old Fender copies that can be found are extremely detailed. These old vintage copies were called the ?Revival? series. This name was given because they were essentially reviving the old classic Fenders. The headstock logo was design such that from a distance it looked just like a vintage Fender. The saddles were stamped, instead of the word "Fender" the "F.S.R.G." alphabets took its place. These alphabets stand for Fernandes Sound and Research Group.
Gibson Copies
As for the Burny?s, the LP models were given the name ?Super Grade? instead of ?Les Paul.? The wording were crafted to look just the words "Les Paul". However, the most part of the design stayed the same. E.g., angle ration between body and neck, curves on the maple top, and even the open book design on the headstock.
The Burny Super Grade Les Paul?s have been reported by many recording and gigging professionals as ?the best? clone of the real classic 50?s and 60?s Les Paul?s. They say the feel is identical and especially enjoy how Burny focused on making really fat necks on their Standards. Some go as far as claiming that these copies matches neck to neck with a vintage Les Paul - which cost around US$30,000.
The Different Burny Series
Burny models that with RLG-XX. The XX were numbers that indicated the guitar series. The bigger number means the better the guitar in terms of sound and finishing qualities. Take the LP Standard copy for example, there are the RLG-45, RLG-55, RLG-70, RLG-90 etc, the best being the "Super Grade" model made in Japan .There are some made in Korea which doesn't make the cut, so do be careful when you go in search.
About Burny and Fernandes pickups
Amongst all the different lawsuit copies, Burny and Fernandes have the best pickups. Fernandes had their L-5000, L-5000 Vintage II, and L-5001 single coil pickups, while the Burny model Les Paul?s got the famous VH-1 pickups, that have extraordinary Gibson-like tone. The only reason why they have come this far in their tone is because of the timeless effort they have put in R&D.
Serialization
The older Fernandes guitars do have serial numbers on occasion, and can be found on the neck plates of the Stratocasters of the Revival series, but otherwise, Burny and Fernandes didn?t often use serial numbers. Dating a Burny or Fernandes can be loosely done by looking at the truss rod cover. The Gibson bell-shaped covers are found on 1970?s to early 1980?s models. The bell-shape cover with thin white band and ridges sticking out from the side are found on mid-1980s to early 1990?s models.
Burny Today
As mentioned, Burny is still making these guitars. Some of these are manufactured in Korea and China. You can tell a Korean/China model by the shape of the truss cover ? it has a palace-shape and 3 screws.
Between the Korean and China made pieces, many believe the Korean model is slightly above the notch. But this, in my opinion is hard to tell. Ultimately, the Japanese made pieces are still the models to go for.
The old ?lawsuit? style models are very rare to find nowadays, and are highly collectible. Even in Japan, prices are double of what they were 2 years ago due to collector interest all over the world.
ORVILLE
Background of Orville
Orville if you do not already know is the name of the founder of Gibso. Orville started in 1984. When Gibson saw that they had the potential to make copies like that others that started the Fender copies, they followed Fender's foot steps in commissioning them to make lower, more affordable grades of Gibson. Their factory was located in the FujiGenGakki plant along side many other famous Japanese brands.
Orville actually carries 2 different names. One is just the word Orville and the other is Orville by Gibson. So the million dollar question anyone would ask is - what is the difference??
Quality difference between Orville and Gibson
As far as everything under the sun is concern, they are both the same. The one and only difference is that Orville uses Japanese made pickups, where as Orville by Gibson uses original Gibson USA PAF 57 Classics pickups. However, there are some out there that claims Orville by Gibson also uses original Gibson hardware like bridge, tailpiece etc.
These are excellent axes. There are many out there who believe that they match the quality of Gibson or even surpass their standards. So, when Gibson wanted them to make "lower" grades of Gibson guitars, it was actually a benefit to those who cannot afford the originals and those who do not care about brand names or logo.
Orville necks are slimmer than their lawsuit counterparts. Their neck width is somewhere between '59 and '60 or like a slim '60 neck. There is no chunky neck among them.
Serialization
Through the serial number, you can find out the production year and month of the guitar. This is done using the serial numbering method. Some of the Orville by Gibson have a letter beginning the serial number which correspond to the month of production, i.e, A : January, B : February, C : March etc. But again, not all their guitars have such serialization. Those made from 1984-1985 have smaller serial numbers of 5 digits.
Guitars made from 86-present have 6 digits. The first digit corresponds to the year of thed ecade that it was made. So the problem arises when you try to identify guitars made in 88 and 98 because both would have serial starting with 8.
You probably would like to note that in the mid 90's some guitars were actually made in Korea. These are identified by the letter "K" that starts on their serial numbers. The other thing about these Korean made Orvilles are that the serial numbers in sticker form. Hence if you find an Orville with no serial number, it is likely a Korean made with the serial sticker removed.
Orvilles evetually started their production in Korea due to an increase in demand. The natural question would be - are the quality the same. The answer is a straight - NO. So do be careful when you do your purchase. Don't let anyone try to convience you that their quality is the same.
Epiphone takes over
Subsequently, in the later part of the 90's Gibson stopped commissionine Orville to make lower grades guitar and started Epiphone. In this season, all knowledge and skill of making these copies were transferred from Orville to the guys in Epi.
But it seems quite clear that Epi did not do a good job in doing the copies, though they were ok in the beginning. Orville continued with their copies and to this day, I feel Epi does not come close to Orville's Standard. My advice? Put your money in an Orville though it cost a couple of hundreds more.
If you have done your research enough, you will not need me to tell you that the guitar market has treated Orville as a collector's item. These guitars are rare and it's price are escalating due to collector's interest. Don't be Surprised if you find them close to the price of a Gibson.
GRECO
Background of Greco
Greco is one of the pioneers of these lawsuit guitar makers. They have been making guitars since the early 1960's at the Fiji-genGakki plant. However, note that some Fender copies were made in the Matsumoku plant prior to 1967.
During this period, Greco made their own series of guitars, but in the early 1970's, they got into making replicas of original Fenders and Gibsons. In the beginning, their work on these replicas were mediocre due to lack of proper knowledge and materials. But by 1974 or so, their standard of making these copies escalated as they acquired correctly styled hardware. To top that, their craftsmanship were excellent.
In no time, Greco made more clone models of original Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker, Gretsch, Zemaiti, lbanez, (and other brands) than all other Japanese company combined. In terms of quality, skill and knowledge, they beat Tokai to the lawsuit race by at least 5 years.
The birth of Fender Japan
Eventually, as the company found that the demand for their popular replicas grew and that the size of the production was getting too large, they relinquished their Stratocaster division to Fender Japan in late 1981. By 1982, Greco Stratocasters became Fender JV Stratocasters, then later MIJ and CIJ Stratocasters. These guitars were made by the same guys who made the Greco "Sparkle Sound," "Spacey Sound," "Sparkle Sound," and "Super Real" Stratocasters from 1977-1981.
The death of Greco's copy
Greco still retained the business of selling great Gibson clones and other brand knockoffs of extraordinary high quality up until 1989. After that, the pressure to ?cease and desist? production of copyright-infringing designs took its toll on Greco and they decided to change their headstocks and logos to avoid a confrontation with the American manufacturers. No longer will ?lawsuit? models of exact Gibson and Fender clones be made by Greco.
The different series of Greco
Greco copies are becoming extremely rare and demand gets higher as time passes for these vintage collectibles. The best series of Greco by far are the ?Super Real? (made in 1980 only) and ?Mint Collection? (made from 1981-1990) models, which were made to amazing likeness to original Fenders and Gibson?s. Greco?s 1977-1979 clones are very nice, too, but many have hardware and specs that don?t match up with the Gibson and Fender classic designs.
Serialization
Greco guitars are fairly easy to date. The letter that (may) begin the serial number corresponds with the month of production, and the next 2 digits tell the year. For example: E804235 would be a May, 1980 ?Super Real? model, production number 4,235. Sometimes, Greco didn?t use letters and only numbers, and even separated the first digit from the rest on occasion. When the first digit is separated, it is likely a 1980?s model; the separated digit corresponding to the year of the 1980?s in which it was made.
If there is no serial number stamped into the wood (not on a sticker), then it was made in Korea.
TOKAI
Background of Tokai
Tokai started their lawsuit business in the 70's. Amongst all the lawsuit guitars, Tokai is the most widely known. But this is not because it is more superior, but because they were good at their marketing strategy. Furthermore, they are the only company that market their guitars aggressively beyond the Japanese borders.
They made their move towards the American and UK markets. This is why you will hear many in the west talk about Tokai but less of Burny and Greco. Orville however is quite well known in the States.
What's in a Tokai?
Unlike all the other Japanese make, Tokai do not have their own pickups but uses Dimarzio on their LPs. In my opinion, Tokais are good copy, but are over-rated. Brands like Greco, Orville and Burny are just as good, if not better than Tokais (depending on models). Hence, you will probably find Tokai costing more than their lawsuit counterparts of equal quality.
Tokai Registry
The reason I have very little write up on Tokai is because you can probably find 1st class information at the Tokai Registry. Hence there is really no point for me to do a 2nd rated job here. What I think I should do is really give a 3rd party opnion on these axes instead.
