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'Lawsuit model' - a cautionary tale
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cliffd64
I only know 3 chords


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2002 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I'll be very wary of buying Spring Sounds - the only one that's both worthwhile and feasible to fake, I think - from now on. (

Barry


Thats wise advice no matter WHAT vintage piece of hardware you are looking for. But, thanks to places like this, its easier to discern a fake... too many things that are harder to fake, like routing patterns, and pickup marks...

Usually, if you have any doubts... its a good idea to avoid the item in question.
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Peter Mac
Guitar God


Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1060
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2002 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys,
You are all making really good points and I agree totally. Is there some way we can contact eBay and post "FAKE" on sellers that are obviously bullsh*tting.
The logo is obviously a big thing but 4-digit neck plates are rarer and harder to get. Maybe we should talk to Ned about a private info line for sellers to determine the authenticity of springys. A fake would not be able to reproduce the same routing pattern as Tokai so this could be another ID point for fakes. Also truss rod adjuster and neck markings can help determine fakes.

Before Tokai, I had the envious task of dating old Fenders and Gibsons due to the number of 1982 "Sunburst 59's" and 1977 "Pre-L Strats" on the market. There are ways of determining fakes - the battle is to get the potential buyer to contact here with all the details and pics to determine the guitars' authenticity.

Peter

[ This Message was edited by: Peter Mac on 2002-04-19 21:46 ]
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loverockerUK
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2002 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by loverockerUK on Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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james
Guitar God


Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 294
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2002 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with Barry - allowing eBay users to comment on each other's adverts opens up a whole legal can of worms, and would probably end up being abused. Anyone buying a guitar over the internet should have the sense to do their research first and I think thats about all we can hope for.
I notice that there is a guy in San Francisco who is going to Japan and bringing back a lot of old Tokais to sell on eBay at the moment. While he does tend to exaggerate his descriptions a bit, to his credit he includes a reference to the registry to allow bidders to verify what he says. Sadly you've got to expect this kind of honesty to be the exception rather than the norm. The final responsibility lies with the buyer - if you have any doubts, no matter how tempted you are to buy, just let it go.
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loverockerUK
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2002 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by loverockerUK on Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Peter Mac
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Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1060
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi LondonBarry,

Good plan
I have an original '82 springy to do the comparison with if this is OK with every-one.... now, Ijust need to get a hold of the logo and a digital camera.

regards
Peter
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rydell
Plucker


Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi all,

i think its fairly obvious - a) i play a springy and its flat down the best fender i have ever heard, and that includes 50s orginals b) they can potentially generate a lot of $$ because c) globalization, even if it sucks generates a rather large market

i remember a wanker from the UK who was trying to sell me a "mint" springy for 1000 pounds, he probably got close to that from some idiot somewhere.

the best strategy against overblown prices and forgery is to keep the community of tokai lovers tight and fair. i never sell to dealers, no matter what the price is.

florian.
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james
Guitar God


Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 294
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew it wouldn't stop at Springys.....

Early spaghetti Breezysound:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=862260534

Goldstar Sound:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=862262166

At least it should be obvious to anyone now that this guy has a little industry going and that these are replicas. But as I said before, does it matter that they're fake? Its what people do with them that we should worry about. If I wasn't already wary of buying guitars through eBay, I certainly would be now.

James
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Peter Mac
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Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1060
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys,
Things aren't always what they seem.
On ebay at the moment, a U.S. guy is trying to sell a '79 Springysound bought in Tokyo.

It has a rosewood fingerboard but the stringtree, scratchplate and bodywood are all incorrect for the model. It also has a skunkstripe on a '64 profile rosewood fingerboard. This doesn't seem correct to me and it may have been doctored to become a Tokai.

To add insult to injury, the ad also lists this site to authenticate the guitar.

regards
Peter
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james
Guitar God


Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 294
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, that definitly looks wrong. And why hasn't he got pictures with the pickguard off, as he has with the metallic red Goldstar. Hasn't on that maple neck Goldstar either - some crap about not wanting to open it up because its so mint (as if turning a couple of screws is going to change that)! I'm starting to review my previous opinions on this guy, but, in the case of the Springy, before we accuse, lets consider that this guy could have been sold a Franken-strat and not known it - he clearly hasn't done his research well enough if he thinks that guitar looks right.
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loverockerUK
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

null

Last edited by loverockerUK on Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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james
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Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 294
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, you're right Barry. I was talking more from a personal perspective (i.e. of using one of these logos to restore an old Tokai), but it certainly should matter to Tokai, as not only is this guy making profit from their name but if these logos turn up on low quality 'parts guitars' it'll damage their reputation too.
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loverockerUK
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by loverockerUK on Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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TommyR
Power chords are my friend


Joined: 04 Nov 2001
Posts: 30
Location: Cardiff, Wales

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all getting highly confusing....I don't think the guy in San Francisco is not necessarily misleading anyone although he should be doing more research on this site as he refers to it in every entry for his sales. I bought several guitars when I was based in Japan at the start of the 90s - Tokais, a Greco, Fernandes, Japanese Fenders etc.. I've still got some of them and one that I kept is a ST-80 and it matches the '1979 Tokai Springysound' to which Peter refers. However, it is not a '64 strat, it's got a rosewood fingerboard but that's the only similarity on the surface. The dot markers are spaced differently (wider) to my '64 TST-55 and the neck profile is different - slim with a more pronounced 'V' at the bottom of the neck. It's also got a skunk stripe and a round string retainer. The scratch plate is like a 50's strat and all parts (saddles and bridge) are stamped 'Tokai.' The serial numbers don't match the one on ebay though - mine has 3 noughts in front of 4 numbers on the plate. As far as I can see, this was Tokai's take on a strat but not a total replica. What does it all mean? Probably that people who are buying guitars via ebay/internet are going to have to do an awful lot of homework before purchasing and they are going to have to be able to trust sellers' information. I've learnt so much from this site - it's not such a long time ago that posts were dealing with the mainstream Goldstar/Breezy/Love Rock models but an awful lot of knowledge has been gained regarding the older guitars that I find really interesting.
Another two pence/cents worth...
Tommy R
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Peter Mac
Guitar God


Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1060
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi TommyR,
Sorry to be confusing.
My reference to the '64 is to do with the shape of the rosewood fingerboard. There are 3 different shapes for "L" and pre-L F*#der. 1959-61 are generally convex, the 62-63 f'bds are flat(slab) and the 64-65 are concave.
As this fingerboard is concave, it has a '64 profile.
Your neck sounds like a '60 as the "V" neck, dot markers and 4 digit plate certainly keep it in that era.
Strats also used 2 different types of scratchplate - a single ply with 8 screws on the first models and a 3-ply with 11 screws on the later models. I do know this - no rosewood neck Pre-CBS F*#der ever had a single ply scratchplate and I believe that Tokai followed that pattern also. Whilst my intimate knowledge of Tokai guitars is limited to 1982 - 1987, things like scratchplates are too important to vintage guitar buffs to just ignore.
It could be that prior to 1980, Tokai tried different combinations and we may never know fully but my real fear is people using the Tokai brand name to move spare parts they have collected over the decades by turning them into guitars.

Peter
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