'Lawsuit model' - a cautionary tale

Hi LondonBarry,

Good plan
I have an original '82 springy to do the comparison with if this is OK with every-one.... now, Ijust need to get a hold of the logo and a digital camera.

regards
Peter

hi all,

i think its fairly obvious - a) i play a springy and its flat down the best fender i have ever heard, and that includes 50s orginals b) they can potentially generate a lot of $$ because c) globalization, even if it sucks generates a rather large market

i remember a wanker from the UK who was trying to sell me a "mint" springy for 1000 pounds, he probably got close to that from some idiot somewhere.

the best strategy against overblown prices and forgery is to keep the community of tokai lovers tight and fair. i never sell to dealers, no matter what the price is.

florian.

I knew it wouldn't stop at Springys.....

Early spaghetti Breezysound:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=862260534

Goldstar Sound:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=862262166

At least it should be obvious to anyone now that this guy has a little industry going and that these are replicas. But as I said before, does it matter that they're fake? Its what people do with them that we should worry about. If I wasn't already wary of buying guitars through eBay, I certainly would be now.

James

Hi guys,
Things aren't always what they seem.
On ebay at the moment, a U.S. guy is trying to sell a '79 Springysound bought in Tokyo.

It has a rosewood fingerboard but the stringtree, scratchplate and bodywood are all incorrect for the model. It also has a skunkstripe on a '64 profile rosewood fingerboard. This doesn't seem correct to me and it may have been doctored to become a Tokai.

To add insult to injury, the ad also lists this site to authenticate the guitar.

regards
Peter

Hmmm, that definitly looks wrong. And why hasn't he got pictures with the pickguard off, as he has with the metallic red Goldstar. Hasn't on that maple neck Goldstar either - some crap about not wanting to open it up because its so mint (as if turning a couple of screws is going to change that)! I'm starting to review my previous opinions on this guy, but, in the case of the Springy, before we accuse, lets consider that this guy could have been sold a Franken-strat and not known it - he clearly hasn't done his research well enough if he thinks that guitar looks right.

null

Yeah, you're right Barry. I was talking more from a personal perspective (i.e. of using one of these logos to restore an old Tokai), but it certainly should matter to Tokai, as not only is this guy making profit from their name but if these logos turn up on low quality 'parts guitars' it'll damage their reputation too.

null

It's all getting highly confusing....I don't think the guy in San Francisco is not necessarily misleading anyone although he should be doing more research on this site as he refers to it in every entry for his sales. I bought several guitars when I was based in Japan at the start of the 90s - Tokais, a Greco, Fernandes, Japanese Fenders etc.. I've still got some of them and one that I kept is a ST-80 and it matches the '1979 Tokai Springysound' to which Peter refers. However, it is not a '64 strat, it's got a rosewood fingerboard but that's the only similarity on the surface. The dot markers are spaced differently (wider) to my '64 TST-55 and the neck profile is different - slim with a more pronounced 'V' at the bottom of the neck. It's also got a skunk stripe and a round string retainer. The scratch plate is like a 50's strat and all parts (saddles and bridge) are stamped 'Tokai.' The serial numbers don't match the one on ebay though - mine has 3 noughts in front of 4 numbers on the plate. As far as I can see, this was Tokai's take on a strat but not a total replica. What does it all mean? Probably that people who are buying guitars via ebay/internet are going to have to do an awful lot of homework before purchasing and they are going to have to be able to trust sellers' information. I've learnt so much from this site - it's not such a long time ago that posts were dealing with the mainstream Goldstar/Breezy/Love Rock models but an awful lot of knowledge has been gained regarding the older guitars that I find really interesting.
Another two pence/cents worth...
Tommy R

Hi TommyR,
Sorry to be confusing.
My reference to the '64 is to do with the shape of the rosewood fingerboard. There are 3 different shapes for "L" and pre-L F*#der. 1959-61 are generally convex, the 62-63 f'bds are flat(slab) and the 64-65 are concave.
As this fingerboard is concave, it has a '64 profile.
Your neck sounds like a '60 as the "V" neck, dot markers and 4 digit plate certainly keep it in that era.
Strats also used 2 different types of scratchplate - a single ply with 8 screws on the first models and a 3-ply with 11 screws on the later models. I do know this - no rosewood neck Pre-CBS F*#der ever had a single ply scratchplate and I believe that Tokai followed that pattern also. Whilst my intimate knowledge of Tokai guitars is limited to 1982 - 1987, things like scratchplates are too important to vintage guitar buffs to just ignore.
It could be that prior to 1980, Tokai tried different combinations and we may never know fully but my real fear is people using the Tokai brand name to move spare parts they have collected over the decades by turning them into guitars.

Peter

Okay guys,

This is apmechling, one of the few people on eBay that has been offering vintage Japanese Tokais. First, I want to say that I have really learned a lot from this website and enjoyed your dedication to learning as much as you can about Tokais and your love of sharing the wealth of knowledge you've collected. I always have good things to say about everything here, but I just want to caution you for questioning my honesty and knowledge about the Japanese Tokais... I visit Tokyo on a regular basis and have seen literally hundreds of vintage Tokais in collections and a few for sale. Many even you have not seen or heard of before. Just because you haven't seen one before doesn't mean it is a "Frankenstein" or that is has been modified to sell for a big ticket.
The '79 Springysound I had for sale is 100% original. I know because I bought it from the original owner. As another member has posted, he also has one similar to mine and has cleared me on that (thanks!). I listed it as a '64 because of the neck style, but it was a difficult decision. It is kind of a '54/'64 hybrid, I guess. Anyway, I have 113 stellar feedbacks there and do not hype up my guitars. I spend big bucks on the best Tokais I find and am proud to talk them up because they are the best Tokais in Japan, and are handpicked from many. I won't buy one that is questionable. I know I still have a lot to learn, but I was disappointed to see negative references to me and my guitars. I am probably one of only a handful of people who have access to these guitars and want to help you guys out, because, God knows you've helped me out. I look forward to helping you along for answers to the mysterious Tokai history of guitars, but please, don't question my guitars. They are all original, uless stated otherwise, and if I don't remove a pickguard on some of my guitars to take pictures, it's easier to say I didn't want to do it keep it in original condition than it is to say that, heck, I get 10 vintage Tokais a week and am too lazy to open them all up to see what's underneath. After having over 100 of these guitars, you just kind of know what's original and what's not. Those guitars I am selling on eBay are just as stated. I would be happy to hook any of you up with info. on mine or get you any model you want, any year. I just wanted to say "Hello" for the first time after visiting your site regularly and to just let you know how I feel about things. I'd love to keep referring your site to friends, as you've got one of the best sites around. Thanks for your ears and, again, let me know how I can assist you in your search for answers - APM

Hi apmechling,

First of all, welcome to the forum. Its always good to have someone with plenty of Tokai experience and knowledge signing up. As to our comments about the 79 Springy, I don't think that anyone is accusing you of dishonesty. The specs you gave for the guitar did not fit our knowledge of Tokais, but I think that you have a valid point in that we should not jump to conclusions just because of that - as you say, we are all learning. In terms of its originality, it is of course your business if you buy a guitar without fully checking it. However, I stand by the point that if you are going to sell a guitar on the premise that its 100% original you should take the time to verify it - no amount of experience is a substitute for proof. Anyway, I hope you will feel that you can contribute to the site further and will still continue to reference it in your auctions.

James :smile:

Hi apmechling,
This is the guy who wrote the post.

I was not questioning your honesty par-se, it was more the authenticity of the guitar. I have no doubt that you bought the guitar as-is in Tokyo or its vintage but as you say - "it is kind of a '54/'64 hybrid"
In the 4 years I worked for Tokai Music, I pulled apart literally 1,000's of springys and goldstars and all were original to the Fender of the same era. I worked with vintage Gibsons and Fenders prior to Tokai, but I never saw any hybrid models - which is why i did question the guitar. My experience did not go before 1982 however so I do apologise if you were offended, it was not my intention - I am just paranoid about hybrids.
I think it is great that you are doing this service for U.S. customers to have them buy old Tokais but to me, a hybrid is questionable. I think the info you can have access to by buying these guitars would be of immense help by checking neck, body and pick-up markings with neck plates as we are still unable to find the key.
Keep in mind that during this period, Tokai made nearly 6 types of Springysounds - ST50,ST60,ST70,ST80,ST100 & ST120 - how can you tell the differences if you don't open them up. This is the sort of info we need.
Thanks for your post as it is always good to hear from Tokai enthausists.
regards
Peter Mac

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Mac on 2002-04-27 01:47 ]</font>

Hello again. Thank you for your responses. You're right about checking under the pickguard for pickup markings, etc. I will take the time to do more checking from now on before I list my auctions. I'll even include a picture of the routing and pickups/electronics. It's just hard because I get so many in. Today I got an '80 Springysound ST-80 2-tone Sunburst '54 Reissue. All stock with the original 7okai pink-lined hardshell case (sorry, not for sale). They did a really nice job on the case! It is like the really early Fender Tweed cases where they put that gloss over it to keep the tweed clean. I also got a CAR Springysound ST-50 '64? Reissue in mint condition. When I put the '64? up for auction, I'll post a pic of the underside of the pickguard. So thank you for your ideas and little slap on the wrist, so to speak... I am very new at all this an have just been dropped into an ocean of vintage 7okais, so I'm learning a lot very fast. Sorry if I made a few mistakes in listings. I will be more thorough in my future auctions. I also have that Tweed 7okai Champ TA-35 amp for sale on eBay. Do you guys know anything about that amp and do you know if Tokai made any other amps during that era? I just found another one in near mint condition and am going to get it for myself.

Hi apmelichiling,glad you be here.Well,if you have read all the post you will know Ned,s effort from the begining,when we knew very few about Tokai.You are right about Tokai quality,and I can tell a guitar guru as Paul Day talks about Tokai("when the excellent Tokai join the Fender fakes...")in an old Fender Japan review in Guitar Magazine.(Ned or any here,try to contact him-he could help us),so when tou was in Japan again you can contact any dealer for information and can purchase old catalogs for posting here(we have no one before 1982).I am very willing to trip Japan,I don,t know when I will do,but if I can go there I will try to ask Tokai factory for a trip.

I'd just like to thank you guys for being involed this way in the gathering of Tokai information and instruments vintage and current. As a player here in the USA, many of us have never heard much of Tokai, or know of the quality that they produced. Your input is very much appreciated from my little corner of the world. Thanks again!