ST55 or ST65 from 1981 Pickups

bluejeannot · Post by **bluejeannot** » Mon May 21, 2018 10:42 am

You are welcome.

guitar hiro · Post by **guitar hiro** » Mon May 21, 2018 7:48 pm

As I previously stated in my forth post of the thread, it makes no (logical) sense that Tokai would produce (1) E stamped pickups in a 1978 example with (2) the two different color insulators = white & black

and then change to (1) NON stamped E pickups in a 1981 example with (2) a single black insulator with two interior wires (as is the subject of the thread)

and then change back to (1) E stamped pickups with (2) the two different color insulators = white & black for (3) post 1981 examples

that is just not logical yet this is exactly what bluejeannot is proposing, which again, makes absolutely no logical sense

bluejeannot · Post by **bluejeannot** » Tue May 22, 2018 5:25 am

LOL Hiro!,your long experience with Tokais should tell you that Tokai do not always act logically.The history of Tokai guitars is littered with such anomalies and illogicalities, mismatched neck and body codes,guitars fitted with Us that should be fitted with Es,maple necked guitars with L series numbers,rosewood necked guitars with serial numbers that should only be on maple necked guitars,Single ply pickguards on rosewood necked guitars and vice versa,skunk stripes on rosewood necks,the list is endless.

guitar hiro · Post by **guitar hiro** » Tue May 22, 2018 6:43 am

bluejeannot wrote:LOL Hiro!,your long experience with Tokais should tell you that Tokai do not always act logically.The history of Tokai guitars is littered with such anomalies and illogicalities, mismatched neck and body codes,guitars fitted with Us that should be fitted with Es,maple necked guitars with L series numbers,rosewood necked guitars with serial numbers that should only be on maple necked guitars,Single ply pickguards on rosewood necked guitars and vice versa,skunk stripes on rosewood necks,the list is endless.

it would be interesting to see at a minimum one solitary set of (documented) non-stamped E pickups with the one black insulator, with the two interior wires, as pictured in the link from the OP

bluejeannot · Post by **bluejeannot** » Tue May 22, 2018 8:03 am

Well here are some unstamped grey pickups on a 79 Springy ST80,who knows what might turn up next!

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php ... 446dcdef0e

guitar hiro · Post by **guitar hiro** » Tue May 22, 2018 8:33 am

they certainly have the correct black/white, two insulator wiring, which is not at all like the OP photo link

Peter Mac · Post by **Peter Mac** » Mon May 28, 2018 7:19 pm

Hi guys,

nice thread here so I may throw in some bibs and bobs . . .
1) All Springys from 1977 to 1984 have the grey insulating cover going to the jack socket.
2) The 'A' and 'B' stamped pickguards were only used until early 1980.
3) All 'E' and 'U' pups have 1 white(live) and 1 black (ground) wiring setup. No exceptions. I have seen unstamped pups on very early Springys but they still have the white/blk wiring.
4) All SilverStars have blue/black wiring. Early ones have black bobbins whilst later ones have grey with 'S" or 'H' stamped on them.

If this guitar is 1981, then the scratchplate is not original. The wiring may have been replaced but as all Tokai pups were made by Goto, these could be a set of those. Check the resistance - it should be between 5.7ohm and 6.1ohm.

Good luck
Peter Mac

guitar hiro · Post by **guitar hiro** » Mon May 28, 2018 8:49 pm

Thanks for chiming in PM.
That sounds like some very good info which would place some serious doubt into the whole idea of, "unmolested"

aroomstudios · Post by **aroomstudios** » Mon May 28, 2018 9:20 pm

The guitar is in transit to me and has cleared customs. I think it may get delivered tomorrow. Worst case the day after. I will pull it open then and measure the PUs. I am pretty sure I will get Fralin pickups for this guitar anyways. I put Fralins in my 1981 ST-100 and love them. Either way I am going to measure the PU from the ST-65r and post what I find here. This is really intriguing and I am very curious as to what they are now.

aroomstudios · Post by **aroomstudios** » Wed May 30, 2018 10:38 am

Just got the guitar. I measured the ohms with my Fluke meter through the 1/4 cable and moved the pickup selector according (bridge, middle, neck). All pots were fully turned on (vol 10, tone 10, tone 10) I got

Bridge - 5.951k
Middle - 5.806k
Neck - 5.723k

Sure measuring them de-soldered would probably give me a closer reading (but only 1-2%). I will do that tomorrow. But I would say these are E pickups from the measurements I got.

bluejeannot · Post by **bluejeannot** » Wed May 30, 2018 3:31 pm

Yup,just as I suspected,they are unmolested Gotoh Es.The soldering looks original .

guitar hiro · Post by **guitar hiro** » Wed May 30, 2018 6:42 pm

Peter Mac wrote:Hi guys,

nice thread here so I may throw in some bibs and bobs . . .
1) All Springys from 1977 to 1984 have the grey insulating cover going to the jack socket.
2) The 'A' and 'B' stamped pickguards were only used until early 1980.
3) All 'E' and 'U' pups have 1 white(live) and 1 black (ground) wiring setup. No exceptions. I have seen unstamped pups on very early Springys but they still have the white/blk wiring.
4) All SilverStars have blue/black wiring. Early ones have black bobbins whilst later ones have grey with 'S" or 'H' stamped on them.

If this guitar is 1981, then the scratchplate is not original. The wiring may have been replaced but as all Tokai pups were made by Goto, these could be a set of those. Check the resistance - it should be between 5.7ohm and 6.1ohm.

Good luck
Peter Mac

Yes. re: my third post to the thread

that seems like some potentially real info, not BS

However, not seeing that in the OP photo link but fairy tales could be cool & great for kids

bluejeannot · Post by **bluejeannot** » Thu May 31, 2018 8:57 am

Peter Mac stated that in his opinion, the scratch plate was not original,this is debatable, as many of us have have all original Springys and Goldies with features and hardware that should by all accounts belong on earlier models, especially those that are only a couple of years apart in production terms. My own totally original 84 Goldstar St 80 has Tokai stamped tuners rather than the De Luxe stamped models usually found on Tokais of this era.There have always seemed to be odd bits and pieces from previous models scattered around the Tokai factory( by all accounts the factory in those days was little bit chaotic) and some of them have undoubtedly found their way on to later models. Peter is a VERY knowledgeable guy, he is though, as I am sure he will admit,not infallible, he has been wrong before, as have we all.He does however, say nothing that suggests that the both the scratch plate and and the pickups fitted to it, are not wholly original and neither have I seen any convincing evidence to suggest otherwise.The soldering on the pickguard AND the pickups looks pristine to me and so I conclude that this is an original A stamped pickguard complete with unstamped Gotoh E pickups with original conductors fitted by Gotoh and not replacement conductors fitted at some later date by a devious seller trying to pull the wool over a potential buyers eyes. As for you, Guitar Hiro, I have no idea what your experience with Tokais is, my own is pretty extensive, I have been collecting Tokais since 79 and researching them for many years ,although I will be the first to admit my knowledge is not definitive and I make no claims to infallibility . I can`t help but notice though that you are relatively recent member of this forum compared to me , so I will forgive your pretty sad attempts at rudeness as a sign of immaturity and a lack of Tokai knowledge.

felixcatus · Post by **felixcatus** » Thu May 31, 2018 9:58 am

aroomstudios wrote:Just got the guitar. I measured the ohms with my Fluke meter through the 1/4 cable and moved the pickup selector according (bridge, middle, neck). All pots were fully turned on (vol 10, tone 10, tone 10) I got

Bridge - 5.951k
Middle - 5.806k
Neck - 5.723k

Sure measuring them de-soldered would probably give me a closer reading (but only 1-2%). I will do that tomorrow. But I would say these are E pickups from the measurements I got.

(1978 ST100)

guitar hiro · Post by **guitar hiro** » Thu May 31, 2018 10:16 am

anything & everything is debatable, no one is infallible, parts get changed, transition periods can be confusing with mis-matched parts inventory, anything is possible, etc.

A complete Strat style wiring harness could easily be changed into basically any pick guard and no sign of solder disturbance would occur.
I have done this myself more times than I care to remember.
In such a scenario the only solder points disturbed would be at the jack & at the spring claw ground.

Also, no one in the conversation has yet to demonstrate a single example of the single black insulator surrounding the two pickup wires, for either E, or U pickup examples.
We know that as current fact; there is no debate on that point.

Just because someone has an opinion that any pickup is part XYZ doesn't make it so.
When someone in the conversation can produce a documented example of the single black insulator pickups being exactly what you are claiming it to be, then maybe those that have read the thread may be convinced?

As far as your comment concerning, "immaturity" I would say this.
As far as anyone in this conversation offering anyone credit for a mistaken point, I offered someone in the conversation a, "good catch" for the gray wire insulator that connects to the jack.
That was an admission by me that I was wrong, on that point.
I have yet to see anyone else in the conversation offer such; you included.
Only someone with maturity would offer an admission they were wrong on a point by offering credit to another member for a, "good catch."
So, your claim of, "immaturity" seems to be discredited by the inability of others to admit when they have been incorrect, when I have been the only one here to admit such.

Cheers,
Hiro