ST55 or ST65 from 1981 Pickups

aroomstudios · Post by **aroomstudios** » Sun May 20, 2018 10:36 am

Anyone know what these are?

https://box.yahoo.co.jp/guest/viewer?si ... 0%26il%3D1

More pics

https://box.yahoo.co.jp/guest/viewer?si ... %26lm%3D20

They have no stamp on them. I think this guitar is a ST65 it may be a ST55 but it looks like 2 piece body and not a 3 piece body.

guitar hiro · Post by **guitar hiro** » Sun May 20, 2018 1:05 pm

saddles & trem block = Fender Japan

pickups look like they are from a lower grade Tokai Silver Star (single black insulator w/two wire)

(center seam) body & neck look like a match (codes), likely ST-65, as a 55 would likely not have a center seam

that is what I'm seeing but YMMV

If Ikuo still has it contact him for clarification

aroomstudios · Post by **aroomstudios** » Sun May 20, 2018 2:02 pm

I purchased the guitar from him right before I made this post. For the price even if it was a st-55 it was still a really good deal. I know the saddles are fenders. Did not really see the tremolo block but that is fine. I do not think that will make a difference at all. I was planning on installing new PU in it anyway. I have 2 E stamp PU a bridge and middle. But I am missing the neck PU. Maybe I will just order something boutique for this guitar for PUs. Or maybe stick the E's in and keep the neck as is. I was sort of thinking the guitar was a 65 and I can clearly see a seem in the middle from the neck butt joint.

Since this is a x5 guitar because of the color I thought maybe the PU were a custom wound like +10 winding or -10 something like that and Tokai did not stamp them or something like that. Were the 5 guitars (like 55 65 etc) custom ordered? Or where they just rare colors that Tokai made? I thought they were custom ordered but am not really sure on that one. But it makes sense they from a cheaper guitar from the cheaper wire. I thought the cheaper ones had plastic plates on the bottom? Either way I got a good deal on the guitar I am going to redo all the pots and wiring etc and shield the guitar also.

guitar hiro · Post by **guitar hiro** » Sun May 20, 2018 3:13 pm

the higher grade Silver Star pups have two wires with respective insulators; typically one black & one blue

personally I would keep the pots & the switch, unless there is some performance issue with them

aroomstudios · Post by **aroomstudios** » Sun May 20, 2018 3:53 pm

I like the 5 way switchs and want to install a push pull volume pot for the tele style neck/bridge and all 3 pickups on. I just find that much more useful then the standard 3 way switch.

bluejeannot · Post by **bluejeannot** » Mon May 21, 2018 4:27 am

Your guitar is an 81 Metallic green ST65.The A stamped pickguard and what looks like unmolested wiring means that the pickups are almost certainly Es.

guitar hiro · Post by **guitar hiro** » Mon May 21, 2018 4:48 am

E pups typically have the one white & one black insulator for each pickup.

Also the wires from the pick guard to the jack are also typically one white & one black.

The photo above is showing a large cross section gray insulator going from the pick guard to the jack.
I would not consider that "unmolested" IMO.

aroomstudios · Post by **aroomstudios** » Mon May 21, 2018 7:03 am

What does the A stamp on the pick guard mean? I was going to ask that the other day but I forgot.

One other thing I did notice. The pick guard is three tone (white black white) the cover on the back of the guitar is 1 tone (all white):

https://box.yahoo.co.jp/guest/viewer?si ... 0%26il%3D1

https://box.yahoo.co.jp/guest/viewer?si ... 0%26il%3D1

Maybe the entire pick guard and electronics was swapped.

Edit: I just looked through the "Iain Black" Strat book I have. I see at least 4 guitars with 3 tone pick guards in there that have one tone back plates. So, maybe that is just how Tokai did it.

bluejeannot · Post by **bluejeannot** » Mon May 21, 2018 7:36 am

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php ... 7be95ea18e guitar hiro states "E pups typically have the one white & one black insulator for each pickup.

Also the wires from the pick guard to the jack are also typically one white & one black.

The photo above is showing a large cross section gray insulator going from the pick guard to the jack.
I would not consider that "unmolested" IMO.[/quote]
Whilst I agree with Hiro that E pickups usually have one black and one white insulator, he is wrong about the grey insulator going from the pickguard to the jack. This feature is not unknown on unmolested vintage Tokais as you can see from this 78 Springy in the link above.

bluejeannot · Post by **bluejeannot** » Mon May 21, 2018 7:44 am

A stamped pickguards denote the higher end E pickups and are found on ST 60s and above. As for back plates, Tokais usually fitted with single ply back plates no matter whether the pick guard is 3 ply or single ply.

aroomstudios · Post by **aroomstudios** » Mon May 21, 2018 10:00 am

Okay, here is a picture of my ST-100 electronics. I replaced all the electronics and saves the old ones in one piece in the case. Please note the neck PU was been replaced with a DiMarzio. This is how the guitar was when I got it. From what I see on the electronics they are original with the exception of the neck PU.

http://oi65.tinypic.com/33xtts6.jpg

There is the gray insulator from the electronics to the 1/4 jack. So, I think this is on a lot of Tokai's not matter low end or high end.

Now, on to the pickups on the ST-65 (actually it would be a ST-65r right? rosewood neck). I have seen several other A stamps on pickguards with E PU in them so that assumption seems to imply E stamp PU. I found a few sites with SS-36/40 here they are:

https://claescaster.com/2014/10/17/toka ... tar-ss-36/

http://www.music-trade.co.jp/t_80021273carte.html

These two have the gray bottoms. Both of them have one black and one purple wire.

Then this on Ebay not sure what it is besides a SS-xx

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-color-198 ... SwkRha8TOI

This one has black plastic bottoms

Anyways, my ST-65r has a black insulator. Different from the SS-36/40's I see.

https://box.yahoo.co.jp/guest/viewer?si ... 0%26il%3D1

I really have no idea what to think now. When I get the guitar I can measure the output of the PUs. Anyone know if that will tell me anything? Or will all of them measure the same not matter E, U, H, S. If they measure at different levels (like 6.2k 6k etc) anyone know what that is per letter (E, U, H, S)? I know not matter what series the bridge will be a little hotter than the neck but other than that?

guitar hiro · Post by **guitar hiro** » Mon May 21, 2018 10:05 am

bluejeannot wrote:http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php ... 7be95ea18e guitar hiro states "E pups typically have the one white & one black insulator for each pickup.

Also the wires from the pick guard to the jack are also typically one white & one black.

The photo above is showing a large cross section gray insulator going from the pick guard to the jack.
I would not consider that "unmolested" IMO.

Whilst I agree with Hiro that E pickups usually have one black and one white insulator, he is wrong about the grey insulator going from the pickguard to the jack. This feature is not unknown on unmolested vintage Tokais as you can see from this 78 Springy in the link above.[/quote]

good catch on the gray insulator to the jack

I am curious about the single insulator with two wires inside for the pickups; this seems odd for an ST of this level

the link you provided shows a white ST that looks to be a 1978 example, with E stamped pups, with the white & black insulators.

It would seem odd (to me) that Tokai would go from the white & black insulators on a 1978 ST with E stamped pups, and then use non stamped E pups with a single insulator on a 1981? example.

It is certainly possible but as Spock would say, "illogical."

guitar hiro · Post by **guitar hiro** » Mon May 21, 2018 10:11 am

aroomstudios wrote:Okay, here is a picture of my ST-100 electronics. I replaced all the electronics and saves the old ones in one piece in the case. Please note the neck PU was been replaced with a DiMarzio. This is how the guitar was when I got it. From what I see on the electronics they are original with the exception of the neck PU.

http://oi65.tinypic.com/33xtts6.jpg

There is the gray insulator from the electronics to the 1/4 jack. So, I think this is on a lot of Tokai's not matter low end or high end.

Now, on to the pickups on the ST-65 (actually it would be a ST-65r right? rosewood neck). I have seen several other A stamps on pickguards with E PU in them so that assumption seems to imply E stamp PU. I found a few sites with SS-36/40 here they are:

https://claescaster.com/2014/10/17/toka ... tar-ss-36/

http://www.music-trade.co.jp/t_80021273carte.html

These two have the gray bottoms. Both of them have one black and one purple wire.

Then this on Ebay not sure what it is besides a SS-xx

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-color-198 ... SwkRha8TOI

This one has black plastic bottoms

Anyways, my ST-65r has a black insulator. Different from the SS-36/40's I see.

https://box.yahoo.co.jp/guest/viewer?si ... 0%26il%3D1

I really have no idea what to think now. When I get the guitar I can measure the output of the PUs. Anyone know if that will tell me anything? Or will all of them measure the same not matter E, U, H, S. If they measure at different levels (like 6.2k 6k etc) anyone know what that is per letter (E, U, H, S)? I know not matter what series the bridge will be a little hotter than the neck but other than that?

I still have the same opinion about the pickups, from my first post: "pickups look like they are from a lower grade Tokai Silver Star (single black insulator w/two wire)"

No matter what the pickups are, I'm sure the guitar is a peach

bluejeannot · Post by **bluejeannot** » Mon May 21, 2018 10:34 am

E pickups typically have resistance between 5.6 - 6.0 K Ohms
U pickups have resistance of 6.0 K plus Ohms
The low end Silver Star pickups are ceramics whilst the mid range Silver Star grey backed pickups are usually hotter than the U s or the Es and sometimes as in the case of the H stamped pickups ridiculously so!Tokai pickups were not matched for their relative position in the guitar. I am betting that the pickups on your new ST 65 are Es!

aroomstudios · Post by **aroomstudios** » Mon May 21, 2018 10:37 am

bluejeannot wrote:E pickups typically have resistance between 5.6 - 6.0 K Ohms
U pickups have resistance of 6.0 K plus Ohms
The low end Silver Star pickups are ceramics whilst the mid range Silver Star grey backed pickups are usually hotter than the U s or the Es and sometimes as in the case of the H stamped pickups ridiculously so!Tokai pickups were not matched for their relative position in the guitar.

Perfect, thank you. When I get the guitar in a few weeks I will measure them.