'Lawsuit model' - a cautionary tale

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james

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Why is it that nearly every old Tokai you see advertised nowadays makes this claim?! I've lost count of the number of Goldstar Sounds I've seen advertised that are supposed to be the 'fabled lawsuit model'.
I rang an ad the other day that claimed this, and even said something like 'original 70s logo' but it turned out to be a Goldstar. The guy was a dealer and he obviously didn't have a clue.
Now, I know we're all learning here, but it just goes to show how cynical some people are about using these buzzwords to pump up the price, without really knowing what they're talking about. So before you part with your hard earned, do your research here! (BTW, I'm not knocking Goldstars - I have one and its great - but they're not the rarity that some people would have you believe). OK, end of rant. Just remember people: be careful out there.

James
 
James,

Your absolutely right. Don't know how many angled headstock models I've seen on eBay that are advertised as Lawsuit models. Most of it is people hearing about the "lawsuit", which btw there was never any lawsuits, and think all Tokai's are "lawsuit" models. Or they are trying to dupe unknowing people into thinking they are buying something that they are not.

Unfortunately, there are dishonest people out there.

Ned
 
Hi James and Ned
My understanding is there never was a lawsuit, just a threat of one.
The basis was that the springy sound had the word "STRAT" in the discription and Fender owned a copyright of the word. (Notice that only the springys' name was altered and not the breezys'.)
Because of this threat from Fender, Tokai changed the headstock shape and logos for sale to the US market. The rest of the world got a logo change. All this kinda happened around 1982-83..?
I think Ned said before , after asking the Tokai President, that NO lawsuit ever ensued.

Some of these comments may not be 100% accurate but should be pretty close.

Peter
 
I suppose that if there was no lawsuit nobody can talk about lawsuit tokais full stop. I think the idea of lawsuit depends on where you're from. In the US, a 'lawsuit' Tokai may be considered to be one with the unaltered headstock; in Europe (where we've always had the correctly shaped headstocks) many would consider the lawsuit models to be those with the 7okai script logo. And to confuse matters further, I'm sure that I saw an AST or an ATE model on ebay recently with the 7okai logo and altered headstock!
 
Generally I think its ignorance plus a bit of deviousness from some. But also I think people like to glamourize guitars with a bit of myth and mystery: hence a threat is exaggerated to become a lawsuit. Dealers love it and propagate these ideas further, but we're all a bit guilty of it, in that it increases the pleasure of 'discovering' one of these guitars. The first one I bought I picked up in the shop because it was a Tokai and I'd heard all the 'lawsuit' stuff, but in the end I bought it because it played and sounded great. Personally thats why I don't go for eBay - I'll buy a guitar because I experience it to be good, not because someone I don't know tells me its good, or just because its a Tokai. After all, I'm sure Tokai is just as capable of making a few dogs as any other maker (not that I've ever played one :wink: ).

James
 
Heres another eBay 'lawsuit' Tokai:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=850064366

An all black Super Edition with locking trem! Although the locking nut has been removed to give it a pre-CBS vibe apparently :lol:
This ad also has that bit of seller's bullsh*t that annoys me the most: apparently its a 'player's guitar'. What does that mean?! As opposed to what exactly? Are we supposed to believe that because its got non-original parts and is a bit beat up that this is somehow is a positive selling point? Please tell me I'm not the only one who finds this annoying?
 
It just gets worse:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=860032807

Apparently this one is a late 70s model Breezy :lol:
An early appearance for the angled headstock then! I'm tempted to email the seller, but it looks like a dealer so they probably won't care about the inaccuracy of their information.

James
 
Re: Michael's post

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=858634556

Springy Sound buyers beware!

Joe
 
OK, fair enough, they mailed me back and amended their description. My work here is done :wink:
 
Why doesn't he say that on the ad then? Another case of omission of information that ends up misleading people. The current bid is GB?39.50 (!) and I can't believe anyone would pay that if they knew it was faked. I don't think it matters if its fake (so long as you know it) and cheap and you want to restore a Tokai, but I'm concerned that these will start turning up on non-Tokai guitars and people will get ripped off. All the more reason to get as much info as we can here about other identification methods (e.g. pickups, body codes, serial numbers, etc).

James
 
I'll be very wary of buying Spring Sounds - the only one that's both worthwhile and feasible to fake, I think - from now on. :eek:(

Barry

Thats wise advice no matter WHAT vintage piece of hardware you are looking for. But, thanks to places like this, its easier to discern a fake... too many things that are harder to fake, like routing patterns, and pickup marks...

Usually, if you have any doubts... its a good idea to avoid the item in question.
 
Hi guys,
You are all making really good points and I agree totally. Is there some way we can contact eBay and post "FAKE" on sellers that are obviously bullsh*tting.
The logo is obviously a big thing but 4-digit neck plates are rarer and harder to get. Maybe we should talk to Ned about a private info line for sellers to determine the authenticity of springys. A fake would not be able to reproduce the same routing pattern as Tokai so this could be another ID point for fakes. Also truss rod adjuster and neck markings can help determine fakes.

Before Tokai, I had the envious task of dating old Fenders and Gibsons due to the number of 1982 "Sunburst 59's" and 1977 "Pre-L Strats" on the market. There are ways of determining fakes - the battle is to get the potential buyer to contact here with all the details and pics to determine the guitars' authenticity.

Peter

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Mac on 2002-04-19 21:46 ]</font>
 
I have to agree with Barry - allowing eBay users to comment on each other's adverts opens up a whole legal can of worms, and would probably end up being abused. Anyone buying a guitar over the internet should have the sense to do their research first and I think thats about all we can hope for.
I notice that there is a guy in San Francisco who is going to Japan and bringing back a lot of old Tokais to sell on eBay at the moment. While he does tend to exaggerate his descriptions a bit, to his credit he includes a reference to the registry to allow bidders to verify what he says. Sadly you've got to expect this kind of honesty to be the exception rather than the norm. The final responsibility lies with the buyer - if you have any doubts, no matter how tempted you are to buy, just let it go.
 
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