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Identity of MIJ Love Rock: Possible trade situation
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Paladin2019
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Joined: 06 Sep 2002
Posts: 1971
Location: Cardiff, UK

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Identity of MIJ Love Rock: Possible trade situation Reply with quote

fastfreddy1962 wrote:
You've been around on here and that makes you what? An expert?


Just one of the most senior and experienced members around here, with a particular interest in the MIJ Les Paul models. I make no claims to being an expert, but I can claim to be rarely wrong.

fastfreddy1962 wrote:
You really are full of it aren't you?
I'll say what I said to you privately in public. You are wrong, you cannot know what you are talking about as you have not seen the guitar. You base your whole statement on what, a two piece vs one piece back?


2 piece back, unbound fret ends, top looks like sycamore, even the owner thinks it was a mid range model until this thread suggested otherwise.
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fastfreddy1962
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Joined: 04 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:40 pm    Post subject: Identity of MIJ Love Rock: Possible trade situation Reply with quote

Seniority and experience can lead you down blind alleys.
Anyways by our own admission you say you are not an expert and at least that is progress. I'm not an expert either, I've only ever had one Tokai so my experience of them is very limited.
The only person in this thread that thinks this is a premium Tokai is me because I've seen ULS150 with both one and two piece backs. Never took much notice of the fret edge binding but sycamore, come on Paladin, I'd put good odds on that being a maple cap and not a veneer.
Just admit it, you cannot know and the likeliest scenario is that you are wrong!
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Paladin2019
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Location: Cardiff, UK

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I await the outcome of the tests I mentioned earlier, and will publicly apologise if I am wrong. I wonder if you will do the same.
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fastfreddy1962
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Joined: 04 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:13 pm    Post subject: Identity of MIJ Love Rock: Possible trade situation Reply with quote

Paladin in what way am I wrong and would need to apologise?
My statements are factually accurate, I have seen with my own yes ULS150's with both one and two piece backs. I have purposely not said that the top is maple, I said it is most likely to be maple which is a measured statement. I clearly said I'd not paid attention to the edge binding and I do not know if premium models such as the ULS150 have the fret edge binding overlapping. I can look at the websites of Frets guitar centre and the little guitar shop who have this model in stock and find out. In fact I've just looked to check and saw guitars that look like a one piece and also very possibly guitars with two pieces.
My issue with you is that you say you are rarely wrong, and that suggests to people who may read the thread that you are an authority on these guitars. They may then choose to believe your opinion, which is as I've argued all along is wrong and based on nothing concrete.
In fact you may also be damaging the chances of the seller making a sale by proffering a defective opinion, ever considered that as a possibility?
I Paladin, have nothing to apologise for! Unless you feel upset by my comments in which case consider this, it was you who said I was insolent to speak to you directly and that I should voice in public what I said privately.
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marcusnieman
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chill, bro.
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Ton of Tone
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Joined: 15 Jan 2013
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Location: Midwest USA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is it's a ULS95F. What leads me to believe this is the fact that it has a 2 piece back (Tokai Guitars UK lists the ULS95F with a 2 piece back and the ULS105F and ULS150 with a one piece back) Another clue is that the flame on that top is VERY nice. Too nice to be solid top at this price point. My LS150F has a solid maple top with a one piece back, but the flame is not as deep as this one. I would think it is a veneer. Just my $.02
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fastfreddy1962
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:40 am    Post subject: Identity of MIJ Love Rock: Possible trade situation Reply with quote

Ton of tone....veneer??? Phah another ridiculous comment, how can you justify that?

You are right marcusnieman, I probably should chill but Iím kind of interested in the ramifications of this debate.
Itís just a struggle to understand why people want to believe this is a lesser spec guitar than the seller said. There is a consequence that the comments offered would influence the prospective buyer into thinking he is being deceived. I thought to myself, how would I feel if that were my guitar that I was trying to sell and I read the comments (offered by people who should know that factory specs are subject to change at any time) that suggested my guitar was not as advertised? And what if that guitar was bought from a legitimate Tokai dealership and is completely genuine in all respects?
There is a saying ďadvice is offered by those who donít have to live with the consequencesĒ which helps to put into perspective any opinion given. Personally I would have advised the buyer to check examples offered for sale (on the web) and then visit and talk to the Tokai dealer locally so the buyer could build a good understanding of the feel and characteristics of an actual guitar. Then obviously go and compare what he or she has learned against the instrument in question.
As an aside, I took the pickups out of my guitar and saw no model numbers. I wonder if my guitar is what I thought it was. I can say a couple of things for sure; it is beautifully made with top quality workmanship, it plays without fault and it certainly not veneer! Sound wise itís good but not quite as good as my Gibson, but Iíd not hold that against it as that is only my opinion.
It is almost certainly a maple capped ULS 150 with a two piece back from the premium series, I canít see what else it could more likely be from the UK range. The question now is, did the buyer make the deal and buy the guitar?
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Brow
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Joined: 14 Nov 2015
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers guys.

It was sold to the buyer from a dealer as an LS150 but when he offered it for sale or trade he had several people tell him it was a cheaper model so he wanted to clarify what it was before I sorted a trade with him. I posted here with his full permission.

He himself contacted Tokai UK importers who have since confirmed to him its an LS150 as was originally sold to him. He's sent me pics of the control cavity and pickup routes and you can see the CTS pots, long neck tenon and the maple cap. Its not a veneer.

Situations have now changed and he doesn't want my trades. So unless I can sell them intime I won't be getting it anyway unfortunately.
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Paladin2019
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Joined: 06 Sep 2002
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Location: Cardiff, UK

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there any chance you could post the pics? If what you're saying is correct then it either represents a big shift in how Tokai are making the premium series now, or shows that the UK distributor isn't keeping up with current model designations. Either way, it'll be good to know for future identifications.

Glad we got to the bottom of it and the owner will make his decision based on correct information.

Sorry for misleading you, we were all acting in good faith.
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Ton of Tone
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Joined: 15 Jan 2013
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Location: Midwest USA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: Identity of MIJ Love Rock: Possible trade situation Reply with quote

fastfreddy1962 wrote:
Ton of tone....veneer??? Phah another ridiculous comment, how can you justify that?


I justify that by what the Tokai UK website says. It lists the ULS95F as the best flametop model with a 2 piece back, and it is a veneer.
http://tokai-guitars.co.uk/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=83&category_id=15&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=31

The ULS105F is also a veneer, but has a one piece back.
http://tokai-guitars.co.uk/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=94&category_id=15&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=31

The ULS150 has a solid top and one piece back.
http://tokai-guitars.co.uk/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=39&category_id=14&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=31

This information (and my experience with my own LS150F) is what I based my ridiculous comment on. If this guitar is truly a ULS150, then Tokai's published information is obviously wrong. Furthermore, I made it very clear that this was my "Guess" and "my $.02" (which means opinion). You obviously are incapable of respecting another person's opinion, beating it down to a "ridiculous comment".

fastfreddy1962.... How can you justify being such a dick?
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JVsearch
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Joined: 01 Jan 2009
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Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paladin2019 wrote:
Is there any chance you could post the pics? If what you're saying is correct then it either represents a big shift in how Tokai are making the premium series now...

Yeah, interesting - LS-160 plain top is lowest rung of premium series.

BUT!

There have been UK "special" orders that were top value - eg you'd get something close to the flametop premium LS-250 at 150k Yen price in a special run for England. One piece body, solid flame, long tenon and all the wiring/tail piece stuff etc. It would be no surprise to find out that that price couldn't be sustained with all those specs now.

The guitar in question appears to be an effort to continue that type of model at the 150k Yen price point in spite of inflation. What then is the true status of a UK-150 with a two piece body? For me - it's not premium, as a big factor is the reproduction of the LP recipe and that means a one piece body. Stupid? Probably, particulary when there may be lots of multi piece body LPs that sound great, but people buying online start with specs and draw lines in the sand.
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fastfreddy1962
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:54 am    Post subject: Identity of MIJ Love Rock: Possible trade situation Reply with quote

Well thankfully we now have a resolution to the debate.
Brow has seen the photos of the cavities and electronics and has confirmed the cap not veneer.
Tokai UK's only deviation from spec appears to be the two piece back which, with the current problems sourcing sustainable resources, I'm not going to criticise them for. If that is the criteria you have for choosing then you pay your money and make the choice.
So we have a ULS150 up for grabs in good old blighty, what would the value of such a nice example be, list is what £1425 so where should a nice 2nd hand guitar be...we wouldn't want Brow to pay over the odds would we?

Ton of tone or should I say hot air, I challenged robustly your opinion because you had not seen the guitar and as such are (as I am) unqualified to judge what the top was made from. You can throw all the web links you like around but they still do not give real substance to the argument. Brow has now confirmed the guitar features a cap not veneer so surely you can now see who is a dick and who isn't!
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togps
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Joined: 21 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UK Tokai LS150F do feature one pcs. body back, solid flame top and nitro.
Make the acetone test and you'll know what Tokai guitar do you refer..
Simple.
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villager
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

show me some pics of control cavities with flame in them, many people have been deceived by tokai veneers...
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Paladin2019
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Location: Cardiff, UK

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Identity of MIJ Love Rock: Possible trade situation Reply with quote

fastfreddy1962 wrote:
Well thankfully we now have a resolution to the debate.
Brow has seen the photos of the cavities and electronics and has confirmed the cap not veneer.


We, however, haven't. All MIJ Tokais have a maple cap, the question is whether the flame is a veneer and it's an easy mistake to make.

fastfreddy1962 wrote:
Tokai UK's only deviation from spec appears to be the two piece back


And the unbound fret ends (a big deal), and possibly a veneer top (which would fit with the price point, hence pics requested for verification).

fastfreddy1962 wrote:
So we have a ULS150 up for grabs in good old blighty, what would the value of such a nice example be, list is what £1425 so where should a nice 2nd hand guitar be...we wouldn't want Brow to pay over the odds would we?


Getting the right answer was always the objective, for good or ill. You were behaving like such an impertinent little upstart that for a long time I suspected that you were actually the owner of the guitar in question and trying to rip him off by overvaluing it. I still have my suspicions, which is why I'd like to see Brow's additional pictures.

fastfreddy1962 wrote:
Brow has now confirmed the guitar features a cap not veneer so surely you can now see who is a dick and who isn't!


You may have won the argument, but you're still acting like a dick.
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