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Trying to date, ST 80 Springy, E Pups might be lawsuit vntg
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zurkeri
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Joined: 16 May 2015
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 4:26 am    Post subject: Trying to date, ST 80 Springy, E Pups might be lawsuit vntg Reply with quote

Hi guys,

Trying to date, ST 80 Springy, E Pups

Been a fan of mine, but cant date it with the serial, not sure if its 79 or 80 or sth else,

Could you help me find out the date of manufacture and body wood?





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villager
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Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

78?
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zurkeri
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Joined: 16 May 2015
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

can it be 78?
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Reborn Old
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Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 481

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1980 models have 000xxxx serial #'s. There were no Tokai lawsuits.

It is most likely an all original 1978 ST ... very close to the last smaller neck plate example made.
One way to check if it is all original, would be to remove the neck and inspect the neck mounting holes.
The likelyhood of a non-original neck having the same small neck plate bore alignment would be very small, so if neck mount holes look
clean, round and there are no previous hole fill marks beside them, I would think the neck + body + neck plate are all from mid 1978.
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ivansc
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the early Springys (pre 1980) have WBW scratchplates?
My `80 has a plain white plate.

Either way, the early 80`s are a delight. Love mine.
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felixcatus
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Joined: 03 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reborn Old wrote:
There were no Tokai lawsuits.


There actually was a lawsuit (vs. Love Rock models), filed in 2004 and terminated in 2009.

WARNING IRONY ALERT !!! Maybe we should call '70/?80/'90s Tokais, pre-lawsuits?
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Reborn Old
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was merely trying to put "lawsuit era" references to rest ..
and hope not to see the OP's thread to turn into a Tokai vs G!bson debate either ..


I don't know the facts or countries involved in modern actions taken by G!bson, but it comes across like a big company bullying a small company really,
since Tokai only exported LS-70F models to the US between 1999~2003.
These featured a lower bout with a slightly different shape, horn shape was different , the knob position template was flipped 180*,
the headstock shape had a center dimple similar to Korean made models, so they could not be mistaken for a LP in any way,
and then Tokai stopped exporting LS models to the US altogether possibly due to all the manufacturing headaches involved in satisfying G!bson demands
and lower sales making such changes unprofitable.
So G!bson's continual use of legal threats was probably successful in some very negative fashion.

G!bson borrowed styling cues from Fender and other brands for some of it's model line, which I personally have no problem with,
other than it being hypocritical suing other manufacturers for doing the same sort of things.
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zurkeri
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Joined: 16 May 2015
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the information guys,
Also I could not find info about the fingerboard and body wood. body feels like ash according to the grain under coating and maybe the fingerboard is brazilian rosewood? any info about them?
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Reborn Old
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Ash body.

BRZ rosewood is not spec.
You might be able to determine if it's a BRZ rosewood board by checking end grain and comparing to other African rosewood and known BRZ examples.
BRZ species are often dark like yours and have far fewer open pores than African rosewood examples, and can in some instances exhibit a sweet flowery scent.

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/distinguishing-brazilian-rosewood-from-east-indian-and-other-rosewoods/
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zurkeri
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Joined: 16 May 2015
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well thanks for the information , really helped. this one looks much more like a brazilian than the others.

one last thing, I am not sure if this one is a 54 or 56 strat copy, any heads up? it has a v neck

and how much should this worth? all electronics and hardware original, neck-body original, E pups, 78 made ash body? cant seem to find a match in the market so wanted to get the idea from you guys.

best
z
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JVsearch
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Joined: 01 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reborn Old wrote:
...These featured a lower bout with a slightly different shape, horn shape was different , the knob position template was flipped 180*,
the headstock shape had a center dimple similar to Korean made models, so they could not be mistaken for a LP in any way

Legally they could easily be mistaken for a LP because the test is about what most people would assume from seeing the silhouette or outline on the TV or at a concert. Most people know ^&*( about guitars and they would easily make the mistake.

Reborn Old wrote:
and then Tokai stopped exporting LS models to the US altogether possibly due to...

Nobody would order any volume off them because of Gibson putting pressure on dealers/distros.

Reborn Old wrote:
G!bson borrowed styling cues from Fender and other brands for some of it's model line, which I personally have no problem with, other than it being hypocritical suing other manufacturers for doing the same sort of things.

They are so hypocritical, and arrogant to presume that they have the right to own one of only a few comfortable shapes in which to make a guitar. And it looks like a small body acoustic with a cut away anyway.

Fender, when it comes to legal bullshit or putting illegitimate pressure on people, also suck.
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Reborn Old
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks JVsearch ... a few aspects I wasn't aware of.


zurkeri wrote:

I am not sure if this one is a 54 or 56 strat copy, any heads up? it has a v neck

best
z


In practice certain Tokai ST specs overlapped Fender model year ranges.
A '54 Fender strat would have had round string keepers and a 7.25" radius fret board vs a 9.5" radius fretboard
and butterfly string keepers from 1957 onwards, IIRC.
All vintage Tokai ST-80 + 100 models shipped with V necks and had 7.25" radius fret boards. I don't recall what years Fender offered V necks.

Sorry, no idea on 1978 ST values.

GLWTS
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zurkeri
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Joined: 16 May 2015
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

precious info anyways,
all the best
thanks
z
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felixcatus
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Joined: 03 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ivansc wrote:
Did the early Springys (pre 1980) have WBW scratchplates?



Don't think so, does it have a "A" stamp on pickguard?

A few more questions:
Allen/hex screw truss rod nut?
Number stamp on last fret or in neck pickup cavity or neck pocket ?
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Peter Mac
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Joined: 16 Dec 2001
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Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys,

Fender had 'V' necks of varying sharpness on Strats from 1954 to the middle of 1956.
The ST-80 and 100's are generally a 1954 replica whilst the ST50 and 60 are closer to a 1958 replica.
All Tokai up to late 79 had 1 ply scratchplates - regardless of fingerboard.
Early 1978 bodies in particular had no shoulders.
All 1978 bodies were Sen. ST had 3 colours only - BB, GS and BL.
The first 1,500 ST models had serial# under the neck heel. (give or take 100)
At a quick glance, yours should be a 1978 ST-80 BL but the corresponding codes should help determine this. Neck heel, neck cavity and 1st pickup cavity will have stamps that provide all the information to expertly get a build and value for you.


Anything else??

Peter Mac
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