Goldstar identification please

Hi Guys

I have some really bad news, here is even more evidence that you are speaking garbage:

http://brochures.yokochou.com/guitar-and-amp/tokai/1981/en_index.html

If you look at the two catalogues one titled ST 64 ORIGINAL MODEL OLDIES you will see an ST 85, 80, 60 and 50 with butterfly string trees, the actual photo is an ST80 with butterfly string trees.

Now wait for it!!!!!

If you now look at the second catalogue titled ST '54 ORIGINAL MODEL VINTAGE you will see a ST100, 80, 60 and 50 with the round button string tree, the actual photo is an ST80 with button string trees.

That kinda defeats all that crap about a ST60 having round String trees and an ST 50 and below having butterfly's.

Let me reiterate to you what I have said before a real Fender 54 has ROUND string trees and a 56 onwards has butterflies, Tokai didn't make this up they copied Fender.

Have you ever thought that all of the Tokai information I have highlighted in all my previous posts might be right and you guys are wrong (Gods forbid)????????

Get out of that if you can, don't make assertions, bring facts to bare on the matter and bluejeannot please stay out of the gutter you will most certainly be mistake for the rest of the crap.!!!!

More garbage from the Gods :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Translated from the Japanese, especially for you .The Tokai 1984 catalogue.
When you are in a hole...........you know what they say. I`d stop now before you look like an even bigger fool than you look already.

TST50(maple) [Body] alder [Neck] maple 1-piece '58U-shape [Pickup] ST Vintage Mk.II [Parts] White 1ply [Finish/Color] GS, YS, OW, BB, MR
TST50(rosewood) [Body] alder [Neck] maple [Fretboard] rosewood round [Pickup] ST Vintage Mk.II [Parts] White 3ply [Finish/Color] GSR, YSR, OWR, BRR, MRR
TST60(maple) [Body] alder [Neck] maple 1-piece '54V-shape [Pickup] ST Vintage [Parts] White 1ply [Finish/Color] GS, YS, OW, BB, MR
TST60(rosewood) [Body] alder [Neck] maple [Fretboard] rosewood round [Pickup] ST Vintage [Parts] White 3ply [Finish/Color] GSR, YSR, OWR, BRR, MRR
TST80(maple) [Body] alder [Neck] maple 1-piece '54V-shape [Pickup] Dimarzio VS1 [Parts] White 1ply [Finish/Color] lacquer GS, YS, OW, BB, MR
TST80(rosewood) [Body] alder [Neck] maple [Fretboard] rosewood flat [Pickup] Dimarzio VS1 [Parts] celluloid white 3ply [Finish/Color] lacquer GSR, YSR, OWR, BBR, MRR
TST100(maple) [Body] alder [Neck] maple 1-piece '54V-shape [Pickup] Dimarzio VS1 [Parts] White1ply, E.T.tremolo [Finish/Color] lacquer GS, YS, OW, BB, MR
TST100(rosewood) [Body] alder [Neck] maple [Fretboard] rosewood flat [Pickup] Dimarzio VS1 [Parts] celluloid white 3ply, E.T.tremolo [Finish/Color] lacquer GSR, YSR, OWR, BBR, MRR
TST70 [Body] alder [Neck] maple '64U-shape [Fretboard] maple round [Pickup] ST Vintage [Parts] celluloid white 3ply [Finish/Color] YS, FO

bluejeannot

At last some factual information from you to support your views, I don't read Japanese so I have to accept what you have written. All this highlights is that there is a lot of contradictory information in Tokai catalogues in particular the Swedish one I referred to earlier which clearly says V shaped necks on ST 80's and above and my most recent one on ST oldies and vintage models . It also contradicts the Tokai Registry dating section.

Do you have a clear copy of the 84 catalogue that is readable even though it is in Japanese, most of the ones on the web are blurred?

I will check with a friend who has a Japanese wife and get back to you, in the meantime thank you for enlightening me of where your opinions come from, see it wasn't difficult was it.

Still digging!!!!

hi, yes my goldstar has got the original '60' sticker on it, it is also poly finished, as opposed to nitro, as on '80's and above.

Hi jonah65

Thank you very much for your reply.

bluejeannot

Still digging but it would appear that even Gods disagree.

togps said:

An important feature of a ST80/ST100/ST120 is the v-shape neck.
I stock at present time 6 ST80/ST100. All of them feature a V-neck shape.
This is also confirmed in the specs. sheet of the Tokai catalogues 1978 ? 1982.
Nevertheless, your guitar may be a good player. Isn?t it?

Click to expand...

Hi Jonah65

here is St60 on sale in Japan it has a c shaped neck and butterfly string trees and a ST60 sticker, it is roughly the same age as mine, there would appear to be variances in all ST models, it probably come back to my earlier post of Oldies and Vintage models.

http://aucview.aucfan.com/yahoo/h191737614/?imgpopup=1&current_image=http%3A%2F%2Fauctions.c.yimg.jp%2Fimg355.auctions.yahoo.co.jp%2Fusers%2F2%2F7%2F5%2F8%2Fpirates6469-img600x450-1407997860ndn6bi5353.jpg

As I said to you before, when you are in a hole...... All maple necked 84 St 60s Goldstars had round string tree and 4 digit serial numbers and most had E pickups ,the three I have owned have all conformed to this spec
.Rosewood st 60s would have an L series serial number and may have been fitted with a butterfly string tree.I have never owned one, I have however owned about 15 Goldstars including 50s,60s and 80s and have access to another 20 or so.
The so called Swedish catalogue you reference is in fact GERMAN,so much for your translation skills.it is also a catalogue featuring Springys not Goldies. Goldies had a different numbering system and their spec varied from Springys. Lastly with no disrespect to Gottfried, he knows very little about Goldies. I do however, having specialised in this somewhat neglected (in the past at least) model. I will be the first to admit however, that I do not know everything about Goldstars and I am happy to learn new facts about these great guitars, even in the extremely unlikely event, that an arrogant and ignorant idiot like yourself might provide them.
So far though I have found you to be deeply unimpressive, and I suspect that I am not the only one on this forum with the same opinion of your meagre observational skills .
Made in Japan by Rock and Roll" Fantastics"..... indeed. :roll:

Hey I'm a God too and I only have 235 posts!

Catalogues cannot always be trusted - also specs varied with the country of import. The peeps here generally gravitate to an agreed opinion with respectful dialogue and disagreement - sometimes full consensus is not achieved, but respect remains nonetheless.

The accuracy gets better as the pendulum of known knowns and unknowns swings in the discourse.
With respect, I think you are shouting a little too loudly here.

Scotsrock,

With respect, the dating section of the website is a little flaky in terms of accuracy and exceptions. The information there is quite old, and we have learned much more about Tokais since it was last updated.

Catalogues are notoriously inconsistent and inaccurate.

However, the amount of knowledge on here is immense and goes back to the early days of importation. Most of the Tokai guitars exported in the 80's have passed through the hands of this forum's members. Some of us have Springy/Goldie collections of 25+, and that's not taking into account the guitars that have passed through our hands. We can only go by actual, real, first hand experience of our guitars.

I arrived with my first Tokai relatively late - in April 1986. But others on here have been there from the very beginnings.

It would be fair to say that Gabe and others on here know what they are talking about, and in answer to the argument as to whether you have an ST-50 or 60 is definitive and agreed by all experts:

Round string tree, 4 digit serial number, U or E pickups for Maple necked Goldies.

Your ST-60 that you refer to which is for sale in Japan is a rosewood neck model, and therefore (correctly) has a butterfly string tree and an L series serial number.

Hi Barks67

I don't think I am the only member shouting!

For certain members to claim they know more about FENDER guitars than Fender themselves and to question the most respected Fender web site
http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fender.html#intro and to tell me my ?2500 Fender Custom Shop NOS 56 is not an accurate copy does raise my hackles.

For other self acclaimed experts to say "with no disrespect to Gottfried, he knows very little about Goldies." when the guy apparently sell them is clearly disrespectful and that not to mention the gutter language!

Hi Suki
Thank you very much for your reasoned reply, you are the first to explain the reasons why you and other members hold the views that you do. I can accept from your combined experience the views that you hold.

If I could however put forward my thoughts on where I am on the issue. I think the VINTAGE and OLDIES brochures hold the key to explaining some of the issues.

The VINTAGE brochure says that the model is based on a 54 Fender with a white eight hole single ply pick guard and a maple neck with a button string tree. This contradicts the Dating Section which say it is a 56.

The OLDIES brochure says it is based on a 64 Fender with a white eleven hole three ply pick guard and a maple neck with a rosewood board and butterfly string tree. This too contradicts the Dating section.

The implication from both these brochure suggest these characteristic exist across all model from ST40 up and further that there are models out there in the World that don't conform to the members views.

The issue of the necks is less clear, the cfh/fender website says "1950 to 1955: Fender neck shapes (all models) have a standard large and chunky "D" profile (big "baseball bat" style neck)." and that a 64 model had "1959 and later: the "D" profile gets yet a bit smaller and less chunky. With the release of rosewood fingerboards on all models in mid-1959" it also say that the V shaped neck was phase out in 1958.

So all this proves is that Tokai ST's are not that accurate a copy of the Fender they claim to mimic. This I think equally applies to any similarities in the numbering system.

As senior members you must be concerned about the image the Tokai Registry give to the World, it clearly has a Dating Section that contradicts most of the information in the brochures and the majority of the knowledgeable members. It totally undermines the credibility of what should be the premier web site for Tokai guitars.

As I have said previously, I have asked a friends wife who is Japanese to look at various brochure and I will get back to you when I find out more.

Scotsrock,

Wow there's a lot of separate subjects you talk about here, and I can feel sympathy for others on here who are getting a little aggrieved with your posts.

Your tone suggests that you are able (with the power of the internet) to instantly know more about Tokais than the wealth of knowledge of this forum's members.

Some forum members here read Japanese, so I'm unclear what you can discover that isn't already known by re-translating old catalogues.

You keep bringing up Fender information. Nobody is trying to say any Fender information you have presented is incorrect. The point is that Fender vintage re-issue and Tokais were not 100% correct, so you can't use a Fender story to backup a Tokai argument. Serial numbers especially!

More to the point, I can see you are trying to prove something here: that your ST-50 is an ST-60. I don't see why you're so hung up on this, but you have the definitive answer from the experts and are unable to disprove it (even digging up rosewood neck ST-60s as evidence!).

And E pickups were not replaced by (edit) IIV pickups!

Here is what Aire Sound a long standing and knowledgeable member says about Tokai strat pickups and I believe him to be correct.
Most of the good Tokai pickups have grey bottoms with separate pole pieces. The early ones are stamped "U" and they are medium hot, about 6.2K ohms. There are grey bottoms stamped "E" and they are more vintage output, about 5.6K ohms and these were fitted to more expensive models. The top of the range Tokai strat copies were fitted with DiMarzio VS-1 pickups and they have black bottoms.Around 1985, the "U" pickups were replaced with ones stamped "VI" (vintage output) and "VII" (hotter output). The "E" stamped pickups were then replaced with plain "V". I have a youtube channel with soundclips of the various Tokai strat pickups AireSound.

Hi Scotsrock

I expect you to be argumentative - its par for the course for a fellow Scot.

OK, lastly for the record - Your guitar is - at best - a 1983 TST-50. It is a 1958 replica (not a 1956 replica) regardless of what you think or own. The 5 digit number is also an indicator of a TST-50
I did read the article you cited and it clearly states that Fender Strats STARTED 1956 with V necks and round trees and changed specs in the 2nd 3rd of the Year to what became a 1957 Spec. - which is what your CS '56 is based on - We Clear on that.
As for my Expertise - I am the ONLY person here who actually worked for Tokai guitars in Australia during the early 1980's as a Guitar Specialist. I have official documentation to prove this and much, much more. I came from a luthierian background dating vintage Fenders and Gibsons for clients before the era of the re-issues. (Who do you think prompted Fender and Gibson to begin re-issues?)
I have been a member of the Forum since it's beginning, have worked on more Tokai than you've had haggis and whilst I don't know everything, I know a **** side more than you...and I trust the opinions of Suki, Jacco, Luis, Bluejeannot, Barks and at least another 100 members who have helped in expanding our knowledge of these guitars.
If you want a pissing competition, I beat you there - I own an original Gibson '59 LPS, other Australian TF members have seen and played it. I also have a 1980 ST-80 and a Fender '54RI.CS
In reference to Gottfried, the history pages on his website I did for him.
I also did the Timeline albeit it is over 12 years old and we did not have as much info available then.
If you want reliable Fender timeline and specs, read AR Duchussoir as he kinda wrote the Bible on vintage Fender. He is not affiliated with Fender either so has no bias.
The Japanese website you quoted for the 1981 Tokai also have a translated to English one for the 1984 catalog - might save some time waiting.

SO finally - when I say you own a 1983 TST-50 you should just say thanks.

regards
Peter Mac

+1 Peter.

Hi Guys

You are all ignoring the Elephant in the Room, your web site thoroughly discredited by the gross inaccuracies in its dating section, that too claims to be a translation of an 82 brochure.

It is generally agreed that the website is out of date - and has not been updated for nearly 6 years.
Also the members posting on the forum are not actually affiliated with the main site AFIK thus the discussions come here to find some truths.

As to accuracy of Fender reissues I have a 1983 made Vintage Reissue Telecaster - It's a MIJ with US hardware and is supposed to represent a 1962 model with a rosewood neck. It has glaring inaccuracies.
First of all they were using body tone woods as used in the 70's - it weighed a ton!
Secondly the placement of the string tree is wrong. It is for that of a maple neck as the decal would have been near the nut.



This was a supposed "Blueprint" guitar according to the Fender Telecaster book. Made with full cooperation of Fender US at that time - as they recognised they had to change their business model to compete with the quality coming from Japan thanks to Tokai and Fujigen. Fender US was in a holding pattern unable to build guitars - but even they could get specs wrong.

As to accuracy of Catalogues I have also a 1985 LS50 Love Rock that defies the LS50 specs in numerous areas. Headstock speced at 14 degrees but mine is 18. 3 piece back but mine is one piece. Brass saddles...
It is by the archaeological digs here that we can determine that it is only the lack of FEB and true Nitro that places it as a lower model. We can only second guess as to why the Tokai Factory turned out a higher speced wood and build ( LS80 ish) as a lower model!
Also my 1987 rosewood necked ST50 should be an L prefix but it is a 6 numbered serial. I only know it's a 50 as I bought it new and it had 50 on the back!

Seriously, we are all good here.

Best B

Sorry for the mumbling post - had to type in a hurry before teaching...

Barks67 said:

First of all they were using body tone woods as used in the 70's - it weighed a ton!

Click to expand...

It can't have been that heavy - the little kid has no problems with it!

Classic photo! :lol:

Haha! Half Irish and half Indiana. Made of sturdy stuff.

Peter Mac said:

If you want a pissing competition, I beat you there - I own an original Gibson '59 LPS,

Click to expand...

OK, this is slightly off thread (and I'm certainly not trying to start a pissing competition myself!), but does anyone have any guitar related boasts that can beat he '59 LPS? or any that are notable for an interesting anecdote?

Here's mine:

When my divorce loomed in mid-2009, I faced a massive trim down of my guitar collection due to being rather strapped for cash. Many of my loveliest guitars, including my 1969 SG, my 1964 Melody Maker and (the cream of the crop, my darling baby), the 1955 Les Paul Junior had to go.

So, they were taken over to CCGX in Hampton Wick. I'd been doing deals (selling, buying, etc) with Charlie for a few years so he seemed the obvious choice to market my axes. He puts them up in the shop and receives an honest, reasonable commission for selling.

Week by week, I would call up and find out what had happened - had any been sold? etc.

So one time, Charlie told me that the 55 LP junior had been "borrowed". I was a little confused by this at first, until he told me who he had loaned it to for approval. It was none other than EC. Yes, Slowhand himself.

The story goes... A guitar tech (Jeff Beck's I think) saw the guitar and mentioned it to Eric's tech because apparently Eric was hiring one of these for studio work. Two weeks later, Eric bought it.

So, although I had to let go of it, it went to the best home I could imagine (and I got to tell the story). I also got to play the instrument for the best years of it's life.

So..... (as Jools Holland would put it), Let's have your boogie-woogie boasts (but not your bare-faced lies).

Nice!
Ok. I played for The Pretty Things from 1990 - 94. Still very good friends with
my old buddy Dick Taylor.
Dick was also the original bass player with The Rolling Stones - he wanted the Brian Jones role so left to form The Pretties.

Dick and I shared our guitars at times when touring. He ended up keeping hold of my 1985 LS50 until about 96.
I was mostly on Strat/Telecaster, he was mostly on an ESP telecaster with humbuckers so we complimented well. The Tokai LS was a very good backup for him - he was originally an ES345 guy until it was nicked in the late sixties.

The Pretty Things were a Norman Smith ( EMI engineer of early period Beatles then producer) project at the same time he was discovering Pink Floyd. Having been the hell raising RnB louts to the cream of underground psychedelia at the time they were close to these new kids on the block, and remained within the Pink Floyd circle ever since. Check out S.F Sorrow.
David Gilmour has been a close friend of Phil May since this time and is Phil May's son's Godfather. He gave Phil his white Steinberger guitar - as used on Kate Bush Secret Policeman's Ball performances. Phil also brought this on our tours so I regularly used it if a string snapped. I hated it.

Guitar boasts over for now.

Oh I met David once and he ate all my peanuts.