Japanese or Korean - no serial number

Hi,

Someone?s selling what they claim to be a Tokai LS-85F. The story is that the seller had a luthier sand that neck (and headstock) so that the neck?s now basically a natural finish, but this also removed the serial number. I?m thinking: fair enough, the price (under 500 euros) is set in line with an item that has no collectible value, and I?m looking for a good usable guitar at the moment, nothing more. (If it is indeed a Japanese guitar, I doubt I?d ever sell it, so I?m not overly concerned with resale value, but I suppose I could always get my money back ? if it?s genuine.) He did try to sell it for a higher price, but he?s had to drop the price little by little due to obvious lack of interest. It?s now in the price range of a new Korean. However, I have no wish nor need for a Korean Love Rock, new or used. If it is indeed Japanese, I suppose it?s not exactly a steal, but a good price.

Here are the pictures ? it looks lovely in any case:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/09gguse3vb1vtwy/nGcb6ECPbQ

So the question is: what (if anything) can I tell from these pictures? There?s the two screws in the headstock and all that, but the finer points of possibly identifying the make of this guitar elude me.

Also, the seller says he can provide further photos, including photos of the pickup cavities. What should I request and look for? I haven?t requested info regarding the date of this thing, but I understand it to be fairly new (2000s), so there should be no long neck tenons in my understanding. Is there something I can use to verify what this would be?

Bottom line: go for it / request further info / shouldn?t touch with a 6 foot pole?

Thanks for any info or help.

Daniel

The refinish devalues it massively so use that to negotiate a better price. Otherwise it looks like a legit late 90s/early 00s laminate flametop model from Japan.

The model number should be written in the neck pickup cavity so try to get a pic. This will help date the guitar too, as model numbers change with time. Ls85f sounds about right to me.

Thanks! I?ll ask for pics of the cavity. I?ll see what I can do about the price as well. I generally see Love Rocks of this age and quality going for asking prices around 600 or 700 euros here, so this price is already significantly below the normal going rate. I will, however, see if I can?t knock the price down some more.

Daniel

Is there any trace of the serial on the back of the headstock???

I'd imagine that a stamped serial no. would be visible unless of course the headstock has been given one hell of a sanding !!!!!!

It doesn't look as if got too much sanding???

Apparently there's no trace. Haven't really asked the seller but based on the photos, there's nothing. Really couldn't say how much sanding it takes, but the headstock doesn't look like it's taken a beating or anything of the sort.

Here are some further (large) pics he sent me. What (if anything) can I deduce out of these?

Oh and by the way, huge thanks to everyone for helping me out and in general for being the helpful source of information you are. Didn't really take the time to make a proper introduction but I've been in a habit of checking this forum maybe once or twice a month for years. Have always been a huge fan of the way you help people but never got around to registering prior to having this situation on my hands.


Edit: Also, I had barely looked at the pics prior to uploading them. Now that I've looked at them closer, should I worry about the fact that the top seems to be one piece based on the cavity and two pieces based on the actual flame top? Is that a genuine flame top at all?

DGV said:

Edit: Also, I had barely looked at the pics prior to uploading them. Now that I've looked at them closer, should I worry about the fact that the top seems to be one piece based on the cavity and two pieces based on the actual flame top? Is that a genuine flame top at all?

Click to expand...

Don't panic, it's all legit. The top is maple, probably 3 piece. The flame is real flamed wood but it's a sycamore veneer. That's the normal spec for this model

Weird model
No model # in the neck pickup cavity
Looks like the neck may have been replaced
Keyio pickups

dombat said:

Weird model
No model # in the neck pickup cavity
Looks like the neck may have been replaced
Keyio pickups

Click to expand...

The lack of info in the pickup cavity is not unheard of. The 'VF' describes the finish, and the neck has already been explained.

I see nothing suspicious about this guitar, as long as the buyer pays a fair price.

Thanks again. The sycamore veneer must be, what, 1 mm thick (thin, more like it)? That threw me off a bit.

I did manage to haggle a bit and I'm happy wit the price I got. I realise the resale value is affected by the lack of a serial number and the possibly the sanding job in general, along with the few dings it has, of course. However, I should be getting a lot of guitar for the money I'm paying.

Details remain to be ironed out but I should have it in my hands for good within a couple of days. I'll let you know how it plays then.

it certainly looks like a MIJ tokai.

looks nice

Have you asked why the neck has been refinished???

Have you asked has the neck been replaced???

In photo no. 15, of the dropbox set,it's clearly visible where sanding has started/finished........the neck binding is white and below that the binding is coloured.......

Also ask what type of finish is on the neck.....lacquer,poly,oil???

from where i'm sitting (in front of my laptop :lol: ) it looks like an oil finish.

Had another look at photo 15 and I don't think the neck has been replaced.....

Well, according to the seller it was sanded due to personal preference. No neck replacement according to the seller.

I settled on buying it and can tell you more tomorrow when I pick it up.

Picked it up and it's a beauty. Seems to me the neck was just oiled but I can't say for sure. It's has that satin, bare wood feel after the sanding but I can't say for sure what it was treated with.

Haven't weighed it yet but it does seem quite formidable even for a LP model. Sustains for ages and has a very nice overall feel (and also a really good setup to my liking) and great tone. In short: everything you'd expect from a MIJ Tokai. Even on the low end of the MIJ range you do get quality, and for the money I spent, well...

Once again, thanks to everyone who helped put my mind at ease.

LS-85 F's were made from about 2002 to 2005.
I see what looks like a 2 as the 2nd digit of the serial number,
which would make it a 2002 model. Your arch shaped truss rod cover was used for those years. Starting in 2003 a black ink stamp saying
"made in Japan" would have been located at the base of the headstock below tuners if not sanded off completely.

Your partial serial number is likely 0205x8x if the 2nd digit is in fact a 2.

If the serial # is important to you, you might be able to confirm numbers by taking very low angle pics of the serial number area
just above tuners right before the sun sets on a cloudless day.
High contrast lighting might help highlight any serial # stamp depressions that weren't completely sanded away.
I use the same method for finding back seams, grain and flame in pickup cavities etc.
Take as many as 100 pics from various slightly differing low angles
similar to IMG_3417, if you can for best results, as the process is very hit and miss.

Happy new guitar day!