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Matching body/neck codes misinformation?
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Do body/neck codes have to match?
Yep, to be all original
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
By no means
55%
 55%  [ 11 ]
Don?t know
25%
 25%  [ 5 ]
Don't care
15%
 15%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 20

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felixcatus
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacco wrote:

is that a golden Tokai logo on your breezy?


Yep, gold lettering and black outline.
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jacco
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, i know the LS-150 & 200 had cashew coloured logo's.
Can some one tell me if the higher end Fender type Tokai's had gold coloured logo's?
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Reborn Old
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't check strat models but TE-120 and TE-200 pre 83 models appear to both have silver spaghetti logos with black outlines.
Picture colors can sometimes be deceiving since flash can wash out color,
but I looked at a half dozen examples of varying quality, and decals all looked silver rather than gold.
Pre '83 TE-80 + 85's were a mix of silver and gold.
I'm not sure necks were all original however.

Could it be possible decal colors were chosen based on finish rather than model # ?


Last edited by Reborn Old on Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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somebodyelseuk
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread intrigues me.
Back in '83 I was looking to buy my first 'good' guitar. My shortlist was a Yamaha SG1000S, Tokai ST50 and Squier Strat 57 Reissue.
I went with the Yamaha. Ironically, my Dad bought a Squier Strat - JV serial in fiesta red. At the time, the Squier and Tokai were within a couple of quid the same price and the Yamaha about ?100 dearer.
In the intervening years, I've kicked myself for not getting a Tokai, as they became hard to find and the new ones didn't seem to be up to the same standard as those early 80s ones.
About a year ago, I stumbled across mine on eBay. I wanted one with the interim block logo, as this seemed to be the most reliable way to date it - I remember these being the ones in stores in 83/4.
Mine has the same code on the neck and body, which if the info above is true, means it was made on my Dad's 40th. As I understand it, the number on the neck plate is largely irrelevant and is just a random number in the same style as the Fender era that the guitar is based on - a five digit '58' in my case.
The guitar has all the right parts and the soldering has never been disturbed.
Now, the bit that really intrigues me... regarding the number/originality, I'm inclined to say, "so what?".
The guitar is spectacularly good, but it's 'just' a Tokai. It hasn't appreciated in value (not even double what it was when it was new) anywhere near as much as the equivalent Squier Strat and considering mine and my Dad's were built in the same factory probably using the same parts, it shows you what difference a logo makes. Same goes for the Yamaha. Both the Yamaha and the Squier would fetch over double what the Tokai would...
I've no reason to suspect the Tokai is a fake. It would be extremely easy to fake, but why bother? These days, you can knock off a 100% accurate fake logo on yer laptop in minutes and it would be more profitable to sand the Tokai logo off and put a Squier, Fender or ESP logo on it.

Regarding the colour of the spaghetti logos, don't forget, these instruments are/were anally accurate copies of Fenders 'classic' era guitars, so the logos were coloured to replicate the colours of the Fender logo of the era the guitar represents.
Until Fender got shirty about it all, EVERYTHING on the early Tokai Fender 'replicas' was done the way Fender did it. When Fender changed anything, the Tokai copy had the same change - these were copies of vintage Fenders, not their current models of the time. For example, the Tele with the rosewood board... end on the rosewood is the thin curved laminate style. This indicates the neck is a replica of a post 62 Fender neck and so I would expect the stamped serial to have an 'L' prefix - pre62 rosewood was a slab board. 7 scratchplate screws on a Tele is a late 50s/60s style, early 50s Teles have a five screw plate. If you want to gauge the era your pre85 Fender copy Tokai is based on, compare the details with FENDER's info.
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felixcatus
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

somebodyelseuk wrote:

Regarding the colour of the spaghetti logos, don't forget, these instruments are/were anally accurate copies of Fenders 'classic' era guitars, so the logos were coloured to replicate the colours of the Fender logo of the era the guitar represents.
Until Fender got shirty about it all, EVERYTHING on the early Tokai Fender 'replicas' was done the way Fender did it. When Fender changed anything, the Tokai copy had the same change - these were copies of vintage Fenders, not their current models of the time.

My Breezy isn?t exactly a carbon copy of ?the way Fender did it?.

somebodyelseuk wrote:

For example, the Tele with the rosewood board... end on the rosewood is the thin curved laminate style. This indicates the neck is a replica of a post 62 Fender neck and so I would expect the stamped serial to have an 'L' prefix - pre62 rosewood was a slab board. 7 scratchplate screws on a Tele is a late 50s/60s style, early 50s Teles have a five screw plate. If you want to gauge the era your pre85 Fender copy Tokai is based on, compare the details with FENDER's info.

As far as I know there are no vintage Fender Teles with a ?V? shaped neck and veneer rosewood fingerboard.
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felixcatus
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for the codes, here?s an interesting one.

    Quote harrison5:
    ?hi have just brought a tokai breezysound on ebay sort of metalic blue. with white binding.
    9-53 stamped on the neck there seems to been a pencil line though the 53 and then in pencil 65.
    on the body under the neck pickup it has written 9-53 and i think a letter D then 4br.?
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JDB
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ST 80. 1978 I think.



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jacco
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have the serial number by any chance Jarrod.
Does it have a small neck plate?
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JDB
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha I just made a thread covering that.
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somebodyelseuk
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

felixcatus wrote:
somebodyelseuk wrote:

Regarding the colour of the spaghetti logos, don't forget, these instruments are/were anally accurate copies of Fenders 'classic' era guitars, so the logos were coloured to replicate the colours of the Fender logo of the era the guitar represents.
Until Fender got shirty about it all, EVERYTHING on the early Tokai Fender 'replicas' was done the way Fender did it. When Fender changed anything, the Tokai copy had the same change - these were copies of vintage Fenders, not their current models of the time.

My Breezy isn?t exactly a carbon copy of ?the way Fender did it?.

somebodyelseuk wrote:

For example, the Tele with the rosewood board... end on the rosewood is the thin curved laminate style. This indicates the neck is a replica of a post 62 Fender neck and so I would expect the stamped serial to have an 'L' prefix - pre62 rosewood was a slab board. 7 scratchplate screws on a Tele is a late 50s/60s style, early 50s Teles have a five screw plate. If you want to gauge the era your pre85 Fender copy Tokai is based on, compare the details with FENDER's info.

As far as I know there are no vintage Fender Teles with a ?V? shaped neck and veneer rosewood fingerboard.


There were some produced during a strike in 1962 when the management ended up producin the necks. They are extremely rare, but they do exist.
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Peter Mac
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys,

As far as I have found out, there were no Fender necks with Veneer boards and V necks. There were some Late-62/early 63 with 'flat boards' but I never remember them having V-necks.
1959-62 have slab boards and when viewed at the headstock, appear convex to the maple. 63-up veneer boards seem to be concave to the maple, whilst these flat boards appear as a straight line.
'V' shape necks were used from 1948 to 1956 on Broadcaster, Nocaster, Telecaster and Stratocaster. Rosewood was not introduced until 1959 so a full 3 years separated the two features.
As only very high-end Tokais had both features such as the TE-120, I think that this was an Original type idea to show what they were capable of.
Feel free to disagree.

Peter mac
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somebodyelseuk
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter Mac wrote:
Hi guys,

As far as I have found out, there were no Fender necks with Veneer boards and V necks. There were some Late-62/early 63 with 'flat boards' but I never remember them having V-necks.
1959-62 have slab boards and when viewed at the headstock, appear convex to the maple. 63-up veneer boards seem to be concave to the maple, whilst these flat boards appear as a straight line.
'V' shape necks were used from 1948 to 1956 on Broadcaster, Nocaster, Telecaster and Stratocaster. Rosewood was not introduced until 1959 so a full 3 years separated the two features.
As only very high-end Tokais had both features such as the TE-120, I think that this was an Original type idea to show what they were capable of.
Feel free to disagree.

Peter mac


The transition between slab and veneer boards was in 62 - it's the reason why Fenders first reissues were 57s and 62s, as no-one could question the accuracy of production, these being the years of detail changes such as raw materials, neck shapes and construction methods. There were Veneer/v necks in 62, as stated above - a mate of mine used to own one back in the late 80s. As I said, they are extremely rare, but they do exist.
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Peter Mac
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm . . . .
So, your mate didn't own it new since '62 - is this correct? He owned it in the late-80's.
The reason I ask is those 'D' necks could be reshaped and I know it was not uncommon for players to do this. SRV's No1 had the neck reshaped apparently as well as Jeff Becks 'Oxblood' Les Paul.
I have a mate who has been a professional luthier for over 45 years and I will ask him about '62 V/rosewood necks - I believe if anyone has had one through his hands, he will have.

regards
Peter Mac
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somebodyelseuk
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter Mac wrote:
Hmmm . . . .
So, your mate didn't own it new since '62 - is this correct? He owned it in the late-80's.
The reason I ask is those 'D' necks could be reshaped and I know it was not uncommon for players to do this. SRV's No1 had the neck reshaped apparently as well as Jeff Becks 'Oxblood' Les Paul.
I have a mate who has been a professional luthier for over 45 years and I will ask him about '62 V/rosewood necks - I believe if anyone has had one through his hands, he will have.

regards
Peter Mac


No, it was genuine. He was a regular in the UK singles and album charts at the time, and can be seen on the photo of the presentation of the first Fender Custom Shop Strat to Hank Marvin in '85. Fender themselves confirmed to him that they made some like that.
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ivansc
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter Mac wrote:
Hi guys,

As far as I have found out, there were no Fender necks with Veneer boards and V necks. There were some Late-62/early 63 with 'flat boards' but I never remember them having V-necks.
1959-62 have slab boards and when viewed at the headstock, appear convex to the maple. 63-up veneer boards seem to be concave to the maple, whilst these flat boards appear as a straight line.
'V' shape necks were used from 1948 to 1956 on Broadcaster, Nocaster, Telecaster and Stratocaster. Rosewood was not introduced until 1959 so a full 3 years separated the two features.
As only very high-end Tokais had both features such as the TE-120, I think that this was an Original type idea to show what they were capable of.
Feel free to disagree.

Peter mac


Interesting. My white nitro strat has both a veneer rosewood board and pronounced vee neck.
The general consensus on here is that it is a 1980 (year I bought it new) ST-80 Springy. Would this still qualify s one of the "high end" Tokais of the time?
The main reason I bought this guitar was because it DID have a rosewood vee neck, which I had never seen on a real fender at the time. And I have played a LOT of 50's and 60's Fenders over the years.

Like I said, interesting discussion.
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