ST85? Really?

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I'm sure my mind isn't playing tricks on me, but I'll check. I do believe they produced Springys during November and December of '77.
I've heard all sorts of things like the neckplates were blank, and serials were stamped in neck pockets and the neckplates were narrower. I wonder if there is any truth in this or whether it's just guesswork...?
 
The first Tokai catalog is dated april 30 1978. Of course guitars were preproduced but as I said, no one here as ever seen a 1977 serial number.
Indeed the earliest Springys have a narrower neck plate and also serial and/or model type stamped in the neck pocket as an extra, ie also the normal neck plate with serial and fretboard model stamp.
 
Hi Suki, Jacco

I have only seen 1 : ST-60 OW s# 7000105 stamped on neck base. I have photos of this guitar.
The first models did in fact have blank, narrow neck plate whilst the serial numbers was stamped onto the heel of the neck, starting 7000xxx. This system ran til mid 1978 when the plate was enlarged and serial numbers were stamped onto them. From the numbers I have seen, I would guess that fewer than 1200 were built like this.
I do believe that November '77 could have been the start date for ST models, but they were MY78 in features. They would start 7000xxx. Those first models would be maple neck only and ash body, even down to the ST-42. Rosewood and alder didn't start til late '78.
All stamped serial numbers on Fendoh models were random throughout Tokai's first 10 years - regardless of year.(excludes SS models) On production line, you grab a handful until they're used up and then grab another, and Tokai had up to 8 assemblers so do the math.
regards
Peter Mac
 
Jacco,
I have 12 files on 1978 ST's with ser# necks - the latest is 8001883.
The earliest neckplate I have is 8003036 (ST-60 BB) so somewhere in those 1,000 numbers the change was made. Can you check your LP numbers to see if any fall into that 8002000 and 8002999 pattern.

Thanks
Peter Mac
 
Ha! Where were you guys when we asked for 1977 models on here? :D
Post pics of the 1977 models pllllease!!

Peter, my friend took my external hard disc with all the MIJ info with him on his world trip. I won't be able to access it for at least 6 months. So I am missing the complete overview, I do have some pics on this computer though.

I'm sorry, I was mistaken about the blank neck plate type, I should have known that, have plenty of pics of those. But hey, I'm a LP guy..
I believe the way Tokai did it was model stamp on neck pocket of the body and serial number stamp on the butt of the neck.

I know there was an overlap in time of use of neck stamping and neck plate serials, I have found both in non sequential order. I have also found models with a neck stamp AND neck plate serial , even with both being different on the same model. And I believe Marcus owns one with 2 different neck stamp serials.

If we take that in account, I wonder how this fits in the picture:

Peter Mac said:
All stamped serial numbers on Fendoh models were random throughout Tokai's first 10 years - regardless of year.(excludes SS models) On production line, you grab a handful until they're used up and then grab another, and Tokai had up to 8 assemblers so do the math.

Serial number stamping was used on ST models during a tiny part of Tokai production, ie only until the first half of 1978.
How would they have gone about using the neck plate serials. I guess these were pre engraved..

Here are some pics I found;


That's 8000760 & 8000664 on the same neck..





A very early 8000003 according to the seller





What abpout this early neck plate serial with normal width neck plate :)

 
Peter Mac said:
Jacco,
I have 12 files on 1978 ST's with ser# necks - the latest is 8001883.
The earliest neckplate I have is 8003036 (ST-60 BB) so somewhere in those 1,000 numbers the change was made. Can you check your LP numbers to see if any fall into that 8002000 and 8002999 pattern.

Thanks
Peter Mac

Hi Peter,

Last Tokai LS model logged in 1978 is 8002059.
 
I thought in the early years, the last 5 digits of the numbering scheme were continuous?

Don't know if it helps, but from my long-time-ago notes (covering about 150 Tokais), I see a '78 LS50 owned by guitargai (Ebay?) with 8001946 and the next I see is an LS50 with 9002203 ('79).

FWIW, the earliest and latest numbers I have are:
1978: 8000316 - 8001946
1979: 9002203 - 9008977

So I'd assume that there are no '78 serial numbers higher than 8002202 (which conflicts with what jacco says above).
 
Hi ampmaker, thanks a lot for your input!!

I first also thought that LS model serials in 1979 take off where they stopped in 1978, but this isn't the case. Although I have not found any other LS model in 1979 below the last serial found in 1978, there is one exception owned by a fellow forum member here, which a 2P neck early type 1978 Tokai but with number 9000202.
I think Tokai reserved low serial numbers in 1979 & 1980.
I haven't logged any guitars over the past 6 months or so but this was where I ended:


First & last found serial numbers for LS & LC models from 1978 to 1985:

1978 8000101 8002059
1979 9000202 8006403
1980 0006482 0011896
1981 1010458 1016397
1982 2010757 2013512
1983 3010827 3016105
1984 4016175 4023546
1985 5023553 5033966

Inkies:
1980 0100106 0104340
1981 1101575 1102089(5)

1980:
Reborn 0006482 0007430
Reborn Old 0007474 0009575
Love Rock 0009694 0011896


Observations:

1978:
Highest logged LS with ink serial stamped on the headstock is 8001777.
First logged LS with impressed serial on the headtsock is 8001922.

Because of production for Fernandes the total amount of LS is lower in 1978 (all Tokai made Burny's have 1978 serial numbers under 8001000).

1979:
Only 1 LS model found within the 9000000-9002000 range.

1980:
LS model serials start where they stopped in 1979, in between 0006403 and 0006482.

The 1980 Reborn is more rare than the 1980 Reborn Old.

Last documented LS with fretboard stamp is 0009384.
First stickered LS is 0009533 which is a Reborn Old.

Exception from the serial range is one example of a Reborn with 0008633 serial which falls well within Reborn Old range.

1981:
LS serials start at 1010000.

1982:
LS serials start at 2010000.

1983:
LS serials start at 3010000.

1984:
LS serials start where the stopped in 1983, in between 4016106 and 4016175.

1985:
LS serials start where the stopped in 1984, in between 5023547 and 5023553.
Grandy Gibson copies, which were also made by Tokai, share the same serialization.
 
The white 78 ST60 with the two serial numbers in the pocket is mine. One correction to make.... there are not two serial numbers on the neck. It appears that they put two different necks in the pocket and the ink stamps for both transferred. Here's the neck on the guitar:



 
Hi Guys,

Jacco - I will post the pics of the '77 for you. There are only 5. Ive also found a 2nd number 7000165.

I'm getting slightly confused with the jargon. Can we agree that 77 - E78 numbers are 'Inked' and neckplates are 'stamped' This inking was discontinued before the '80-'81 LS-50/60 2nd Factory inkies.

ampmaker : please consider that Tokai may have started new numbering each year (ONLY a theory) for the first 3 years, I am quite sure that if they were sequential but spread out between ST and LS/LC models then by 1980, a new sequence would have begun once they hit the 10,000 mark.
I do have a record of LPR in the RO number sequence.

I will at this time draw attention to a past member - Andrew Melching - who lived in Japan for many years and catalogued the 400 odd Tokai guitars he bought and sold. He very kindly sent me all his findings with pics, serial#, body ink and descriptions. Between his info and the records I'd kept from Tokai Aust. I was able to piece together a very solid body of features that are the basis of my book. I am currently seeking a publisher.
I would however be amiss if not to include a lot of the members from TF whose comments and diligence pushed and spurred me on, pointed out my miscalculations and found things that I had missed. Jacco, Marcus, I count you in among those "contributors" and you are among the members acknowledged.

regards
Peter Mac
 
Peter, your book is one of the finest I've ever seen - full of information, pictures and history on the brand. I certainly hope you didn't take offense to my comment above .... I was just trying to add some clarification to the double stamp in the neck pocket.
 
Peter Mac said:
ampmaker : please consider that Tokai may have started new numbering each year (ONLY a theory) for the first 3 years, I am quite sure that if they were sequential but spread out between ST and LS/LC models then by 1980, a new sequence would have begun once they hit the 10,000 mark.

I stopped looking and recording about 8yrs ago. (I remember Andrew, I bought at least one guitar through him.) The complete list of early serial numbers I recorded was:
8000316
8000349
8001443
8001634
8001840
8001946
9002203
9002348
9004497
9006967
9008977
0005475
0006760
0008147
0008912
0008992

0009554
0009655
0009903
0009903
0010245
0010754
0011173
0012658
0013024
0014106
1010523
1011071
1011104
1011954
1012970
1013391
1013587
1013659
1013871
1014602
1014917
1015109
1015698
1016323
1016958
1017084
1017828
1018834
1022403
1024095
1024659

So '78 and '79 here show no overlap, and things went a bit odd in '80 (overlap shown in bold). In fact, the almost complete lack of later year codes with very low serial number is what leads me to believe that Tokai at least tried for a couple of years to have a consecutive numbering scheme. Perhaps, as they made more and more guitars, the numbering and production process got out of sync? (shrug)

Within my numbers may be fakes (a little less likely back then), swapped Freplica neck plates and/or some confusion over other Japanese brands. I just didn't record the finer details that you guys have done.

If I check the difference between the lowest and highest serial numbers for each of the first few years, I get a very rough (i.e. under estimate) idea of production numbers:

1978 = 1630
1979 = 6774
1980 = 8631
1981 = 14136
1982 = 15868
1983 = 22550
1984 = 26287
 
@ampmaker, those are a mix of all Tokai models, right?

@Peter in 1978, 1979 & 1980 they did start at zero for sure



 
Lol, well I have them separated :)
Was curious if you had them specified, so which model belongs to which serial number.
 
Guys,

To bring the thread a little more back on track, I now have the ST-85 in the original post here with me, and here are my initial findings...

1. Tokai saddles - in excellent condition (obviously a player who doesn't sweat on the bridge)
2. Tokai tuners
3. E pickups
4. Neck and body numbers out by one day. I have never seen this, and both parts seem nitro. Very odd, but credible that this may be how it left the factory. Interestingly, the neck heel also says "ST-100", whereas the fingerboard is also stamped ST-85. Are these irregularities anything to do with the early days of the production line,, or do I have a partscaster? Or anything even more sinister? lol
5. Tokai logo scratched off down to bare wood. This headstock will need to be taken down to bare wood, nitro applied, decal applied and re-lacquered.
6. Insides look pristine. evidence of lacquer fade on body that are not present underneath the pickguard. Body looks one-piece.

Pics below. Any thoughts?

http://s1356.photobucket.com/user/sb-1969/library/ST-85%20springy%201978
 
Don't see the ST-100 in the pics?
ST-80 stamp on the body = meant to be an ST-80. The natural version of the the ST-80 was a 5000 yen upgrade thus they decided for it to become a ST-85. Fretboard stamp was on of the last things applied so that is the main identifier for the model type.
I have seen a 1979 LS-80 (fretboard stamp) with LS-100 body stamp.
 
.I was reading 87100...but the interesting thing is the one piece body. This guitar seems to have all the st100 features but the gold hardware...
 

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