Is the holy grail realy the best?

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Joop

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Hi Guys,

We all know the stories about the original 57 and 59 Gibson Les Pauls that are worth fortunes. Still today many guitar players today would prefer let's say a Gibson (original, custom shop, VOS) over some of the MIJ guitars...

Personally speaking I still believe that the brand of a guitar chances the perception some one has even before he/she picks up the instrument and that people are looking to confirm their vested opinions.

However, I wonder what they would chose as their favourite instrument if they were to play them blind folded? In other words, blind fold a group of 20 guitar players and let them play different instruments (for example all Les Pauls) and afterwards let them say which ones they preferred and why. That would be the ultimate test, woudn't it?

I came accross this article about a vintage instrument that is perhaps the most famous of all.... the Stradivarius violin.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2012/01/02/144482863/double-blind-violin-test-can-you-pick-the-strad

Interesting story....

Greetings,

Joop
 
I think acoustic instruments are different. I have no doubt a strad or a guarneri will kill most modern instruments under most violinists hands. With electric guitars you have a signal chain ...

I know for a fact the Auditorium in Madrid owns three different steinway D grand pianos. All taken care of and stored in the same room, all identical construction, all watched by the same technician. Well, most pianists who perform there (i am talking world class classical pianists) consistently chose the same one over and over again.
 
For me there's no difference; I always test my LPs acoustically, if they fail, they go.
 
jacco said:
For me there's no difference; I always test my LPs acoustically, if they fail, they go.

Hi Jacco,

I agree that unplugged a guitar has to sound (and feel) good with a nice sustain.

What else are you looking for? Volume of the guitar accoustically? Brightness?

Please explain a bit more about how you test a guitar.


Alvast Bedankt!

Joop
 
Actually depth; a combination of a wide frequency response, resonance and dynamics, per string that is, on the complete neck but at least in the places where my fingers will be most of the time.
I have found that I don't like an overly bright guitar but further I don't care for every guitar has some characteristics that I like. Volume doesn't matter either to me, this all can be compensated with pickups & amp.

Graag gedaan!
 
jacco said:
For me there's no difference; I always test my LPs acoustically, if they fail, they go.

But what if it sounded great through an amp :)
 
You're confusing "best" with "most desirable" - which rare and antique instruments are.

As a fellow over on the MR forums said recently - a Louis XIV-era desk works exactly the same as a modern one. It doesn't magically make your writing better, nor your wit more witty, nor your prose more prosaic; it's a desk. What it is is very, very rare, and therefore almost priceless in a market where there are interested buyers with massive amounts of money. Even a good vintage copy of said desk demands a large sum of money... which brings us neatly onto the Tokai forums, hooray! :D
 
AlanN said:
You're confusing "best" with "most desirable" - which rare and antique instruments are.

As a fellow over on the MR forums said recently - a Louis XIV-era desk works exactly the same as a modern one. It doesn't magically make your writing better, nor your wit more witty, nor your prose more prosaic; it's a desk. What it is is very, very rare, and therefore almost priceless in a market where there are interested buyers with massive amounts of money. Even a good vintage copy of said desk demands a large sum of money... which brings us neatly onto the Tokai forums, hooray! :D

Alan, well put! Are you a writer? :lol:
 
AlanN said:
You're confusing "best" with "most desirable" - which rare and antique instruments are.

As a fellow over on the MR forums said recently - a Louis XIV-era desk works exactly the same as a modern one. It doesn't magically make your writing better, nor your wit more witty, nor your prose more prosaic; it's a desk. What it is is very, very rare, and therefore almost priceless in a market where there are interested buyers with massive amounts of money. Even a good vintage copy of said desk demands a large sum of money... which brings us neatly onto the Tokai forums, hooray! :D

Hi Alan,

Yes, you are absolutely right and I guess that the musicians in the article I quoted all would have liked to own a Strad. My point more or less is that I don't think that people have ever done a blind test and judge an instrument just on how it sounds and feels, without looking at the brand.

Don't know much about violins but my guess is that the necks would be all pretty similar in terms of width, etc whereas with Les Pauls you have so many varieties. I once owned a Gibson Custom Shop 1968 reissue Les Paul Custom and I sold it on because the neck was too fat for my liking. However, the guitar oozed quality and sounded beautiful. However, what if they were all build with the same necks, etc. would people pick out their favourite instrument in a blind test?

Anyway, enough about violins.... let's rock!!

Joop
 
I , a few years ago, bough a G&L telecaster, factory ordered, thinline , orange with the f hole, beaitiful guitar. 1300 usd i think i paid.
At the same time i ordered a 350 usd tele from agile the one with SD pickups.

One month after receiving the G&L i sold it. The Agile sounded and felt better, and proof was teh fact that after having both for a month, i was playing the agile for an hour every 10 minutes i played he G&L (which, btw, came with a high fret and an annoying buzz on the 12th fret).
 
Joop said:
Hi Guys,

We all know the stories about the original 57 and 59 Gibson Les Pauls that are worth fortunes. Still today many guitar players today would prefer let's say a Gibson (original, custom shop, VOS) over some of the MIJ guitars...

Personally speaking I still believe that the brand of a guitar chances the perception some one has even before he/she picks up the instrument and that people are looking to confirm their vested opinions.

However, I wonder what they would chose as their favourite instrument if they were to play them blind folded? In other words, blind fold a group of 20 guitar players and let them play different instruments (for example all Les Pauls) and afterwards let them say which ones they preferred and why. That would be the ultimate test, woudn't it?

I came accross this article about a vintage instrument that is perhaps the most famous of all.... the Stradivarius violin.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2012/01/02/144482863/double-blind-violin-test-can-you-pick-the-strad

Interesting story....

Greetings,

Joop

The strings are the core, the source of the vibration, the acoustic body only resonates to the frequencies the string generates. Always worth popping on a new set of strings 12 hours before an important performance. Even a Strad suffers with shot strings!
 
True the strings are the initial source. Then, dependent on their anchorage and bridge transmission properties, they interact with body and neck materials in very subtle ways.

One would need extremely expensive and sophisticated analytical instruments to measure the unique characteristics of individual but similar instruments, but there is nothing to compare with an experienced ear. I admit that I am easily pleased as far as electric guitars go, but there are others who will seek out the finer instruments not just for appearance or rarity but for their unique intrinsic qualities.
 
Threads like this are why I hang around here. Nobody gets flamed, no name calling. Responsible, thoughtfully expressed. We can differ with each other, but respect the various points of view.

Well, that and Mark's surfing pics. :wink:

Thank you!
 
like the rest of you, i to had always wanted a usa gibson les paul. when the finances became available i finally bought a beautiful looking gibson, however when it arrived i'm afraid i was not overly impressed with the sound, so i thought i would put it away in its case to gain in value over the years.
after about 8 months , in which time i had maybe tried it out 3 or 4 times, i thought i'll sell it and try a tokai.
from the ?1400 i got back, i've managed to buy a tokai ls80 (2008), a boss gt10, and another tokai st.
to say the tokai is better sound wise would be an understatement, i can now appreciate why people rave about les pauls'.
1980 reborn, will be next on the list. :D
 
I own a sort of minor holy grail, I guess - a '67 Fender Tele. Sure, it's post-CBS, but still, it's original, it's pushing fifty and iworth a reasonable sum of money (not as much as in '08, but hey, I'm not selling. :) )- I bought it in '76, I've "reliced" it the hard way and it's more of a body part than an instrument by now, I guess.

Which makes it all the harder to admit that my two recently aquired MIJ guitars, a Tokai ST-60 Springy and a Burny LP Custom (prob an RLC-60), both early '80s, are the better instruments. They're fundamentally different from the Tele, of course, but in terms of general build quality and playablity... they kill the poor old paddle. And at 30, they have their own, very tangible"vintage vibe". Amazing instruments.

So, there's no looking back, I guess, I'm officially an MIJ Guitar Enthuiast & Collector. Next up: a ES335 repro, and I'm going for the full set. :) But, though I'd like to own a nice Breezy Sound, I'm not sure I'd want to subject my old Fender to a direct comparison... :)
 
A true blind LP test would be a wonderful thing. I doubt any brand would be a clear winner. And I don't think original '50s LPs would easily stand out against modern high-quality LPs (Gibson Historic, Tokai, Navigator, Heritage, etc.) using PAF clones like Bareknuckles, or Sheptones.

Acoustic tests would take the electronics out of the picture, but might not tell you the entire story.

But, as in the Stradivarius tests, I really doubt anyone would be able to pick out a couple of '50s LPs from a bunch of well made, solid LPs with one piece backs any better than you'd expect by chance.

Player needs to be blinded too of course. Changes the way you play when someone puts a '59 LP in your hands, I'm guessing. :)
 
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