Just got my first Tokai, LS-80??

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CryBaby

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Hello everyone,

This is my first post in this forum, which btw has been very helpful, thanks! :D

Anyway, I just got an -85 LoveRock (serial no. 502xxxx) but here's the deal, I'm not quite sure it's actually an LS-80 which it was sold to me as.
The seller was very polite and honest and told me all i wanted to know about this guitar, but i never asked how he knew it's an LS-80 :-?

I don't really care what model it is cause this guitar is absolutely great both when it comes to looks and playability! But the reason I'm asking is, the sticker that should've been under the serial number was(looks like recently) scratched away :-?

My first question is, i guess... how do i really determine what model it is?
I already removed the neck pickup and it's not a veneer top from what i could see, (looked VERY closely). Only removed the neck pickup but it didn't have any info on the back.

This is a very solid guitar all the way, me and a friend were comparing it to his -99 Gibson Les Paul -59 Reissue and as far as playability goes we both agreed that they're very close, he even thought the Tokai sounded better :D I would have to disagree on that though, to me the Classic '57 in his R9 sounded alot better...

Maybe I should make another thread for this but when I'm at it i might as well ask... What "mods" do you guys usually do on these guitars? Or do you? I've already considered switching the pickups to Voodoo '59's but what about the pots & caps, would changing them make a big difference? I'm not really concerned about keeping it all stock because it's not as it is, the tuners were switched by a previous owner to Kluson Deluxe's, guess off an old Gibson(they are very aged). Also the caps have been switched, i know this because i got the original tuners and 2 extra caps in a little bag.

BTW here's the picture that was in the ad, only pic i got right now, don't have a digi-camera... You can tell it's an old picture cause it has the original tuners, but otherwise it looks like this... reminds me of Greeny's burst what do you guys think?
:)

Thanks in advance, Johan

ps. please excuse my spelling.
24-24981766324.jpg
 
That is so Greeny burst - I'm jealous!

The descriptions of the '85 LS60's and LS80's in the catalogue pages are virtually identical, so I'm shooting in the dark a bit here. The LS60's of that year had a flame veneer top - with obvious tigerstripes - and yours looks a little subtler, so it could be a solid top, making it the higher model. Also, you don't mention the printed circuit board electonics of the LS60, so if regular pots were original to it, again it could be because it is the higher model. This is only a guess, since we seem to have to do our own detective work with these older Tokai's.

What kind of pickups are in it? Does the hardware look nickel or chrome?

What's interesting is that bell-shaped truss rod cover and the double-ring tulip tuners were only on pre-81 Love Rocks. but they could have been changed since the serial number shows it to defintely be an '85.
 
Hi CryBaby, welcome to the Forum 8) .

Well great looking guitar, top looks killer & really good vintage vibe ? looks very much like the expensive relic jobs that Tokai made late 1990?s early 2000 ? but of course you have 1985 Serial No, so can?t be a deliberate relic, can it?

Just add a little to what Novosel said ?..

?. earlier LS80 had binding over fret edges, had circuit board in control cavity, & tops were solid but plain (ie not flamed veneer, at least not deliberately flamed), eg 1978-80 Reborn & Reborn Old. But I?m not sure whether those specs had changed by 1985. On those earlier guitars the LS60 had 2-piece or sometimes 3-piece back (well matched & often difficult to spot joins, especially on ?darkbacks?), whereas I believe LS80 was specified with 1-piece back. Strange thing about LS60, as Novosel suggests ? until about 1984 the LS60 was only made with solid plain top, but around 84 to 85 it seems it was also available with flamed veneer top.

Apart from checking the above (ie fret binding & single piece back etc.), you could also look under pickups where they often stamped codes for colour & model number.

Just on the pickups & tone ? you?ll get all sorts of views on which pickups are best & whether you ought to swap for ?boutique brand X?, however, there are plenty of experienced players who rate the original Gotohs quite highly. Of course if you don?t like the tone then swap pups by all means, but first be sure to try all combinations of tone/vol settings on amp & guitar ? you?d be surprised how many people fail to do that properly ? different guitars always need different settings, sometimes very different (often need a different/better amp). But are the pickups original (should be stamped Gotoh underneath)?

Finally re. the tuners - yes, original 1985 tuners should be single-ring Gotoh copies of Kluson single line ?Deluxe? (yours are double ring ... as fitted to earlier Tokai until 1980) :-? .

Ian.

ps:- don't know about your spelling (didn't check that), but your written English is great :D .
 
CryBaby said:
My first question is, i guess... how do i really determine what model it is?
It's still a good idea to go to the main site and read through all those catalogues that Ned hosts so kindly for us - but be prepared for a serious GAS attack... :)

A problem with the earlier ones is that they are in Japanese most of the time, but e.g. the 1986 catalogue is also available in English. There you can check what specs what model had, i.e. if it's explicitely mentioned or not that it has a solid maple top or a veneer or one piece for the mahogany body and neck etc.

What "mods" do you guys usually do on these guitars? Or do you?
Before starting, I would recommend to get used to the acoustic sound of your guitar, so you can decide if a modification comes out better or worse than before. For example I like lightweight tailpieces on both of my Love Rocks, but that doesn't mean it must be the best for yours, too. Same is true for top wrapping the strings or not, this or that pickup and so on.

You can tell it's an old picture cause it has the original tuners, but otherwise it looks like this... reminds me of Greeny's burst what do you guys think?
That finish is usually called Violin Finish/VF in the catalogues, and yes, it looks similar to the one from Peter Green, but not quite "aged" enough... ;)
 
Thanks for the warm welcome and replies! :)

I didn't think about checking the catalogues before, actually when I did I noticed that the '85 TLS80 actually should have a "Flame maple laminated top & mahogany back" :http://www.tokairegistry.com/images/catalogs/tokai8514.jpg
Of course I'm no expert so I could've overlooked the laminate...
About the back (just checked it closely :p ) again I'm pretty sure it's a one piece, but as ian said it's very hard to spot the joins!
The binding does go over the fret edges. It does not have a circuit board.

I will remove both pickups a little later tonight to check for anything... Oh btw, what about those Tokai '57 PAF pup's that it should have according to the catalogue, are those supposed to have any stamps on the back? As i said before there was no info at all under the neck pickup.. :-?

Again thanks for the help, I guess I'll learn to know my guitar a bit better before i start modding it ... also it would be fun to clear out the "mistery" about what model it really is. Here's a bit of history about it that I just remembered, the guy that sold it to me said that the guy HE bought it from had imported it straight from Japan, so I guess all kinds of parts could've been swapped out there, dunno why but(if the tuners are really pre-81?) you prolly get my point. It was already used when he got it from Japan, dunno if he got it from a dealer or not.
 
the easiest way to spot a seam on a two piece body is on the bottom edge around the strap pin.
 
I don?t say the tuners are pre-81 (I thought that sentence might be confusing), just say that originally Tokai only used double rings until 1980 (not afterwards) ? what you have could be modern replacements ? but in any case an 85 Tokai should have single ring tuners.

If your guitar has fret binding then it must be at least LS80 ? don?t believe LS60 ever had that (mine certainly doesn?t).

Believe an LS80 would have had circuit board originally ? certainly that was true on earlier Reborn, Reborn Old and first Love Rocks up to at least LS100. As I said before, where the circuit board is fitted I see no reason to remove it ? but of course guys often like to experiment with paper/oil caps or RS kits etc.

I think your guitar would be great if returned to Stock setup ? but that may now be harder that using replacement parts ? potentially great guitar though, congrats 8) .

Ian.
 
Thanks ian,

You know what?! Since this has been such a "loved" guitar all these years, you can tell by all the scratches and dents, I'll continue to love it.

Doesn't mather to me at all what model it is because it's such a good instrument! I'll probably try some different pickups and pots and caps until I get it to sound like I want it to, it may never be completely original again, but that's ok! Anyway... i guess we're not quite sure if it's REALLY an LS-80 but pretty sure is good enough heh :)

Thanks again for your help all of you,

oh btw, tubedogsmith - I checked the bottom at the strap pin, definately a one piece!

I'll try to post some pics of it in the future, even my girlfriend said it looks ALOT better in real life than in that picture, and she could care less :lol:
 
Correction:

My friend just pointed out to me that the binding doesn't cover the fret edges which I would've known of course if I wasn't such a newbie to Les Paul type guitars, sorry about that... I did check the pickup cavities again and back of pickups, no info at all!

I was thinking that the tuners that was on the guitar when it came from Japan( the double rings ) are as ian said modern replacement ones.

Guess it's a bit of a mystery guitar, with parts from here and there, but then again alot of the seem to be like this am I right?
 
CryBaby said:
I did check the pickup cavities again and back of pickups, no info at all!
By the way, in the cavities you can also check if the body has a seam or not (1- vs. 2-piece) and more important, if the graining of the maple can be followed to the surface of the bookmatched top, i.e. if any of these fine grains are visible there or not.

Guess it's a bit of a mystery guitar, with parts from here and there, but then again alot of the seem to be like this am I right?
I think the circuit board has been changed at some time by a former owner, maybe the tuners as well. The original pickups should have a black sticker with golden letters though, at least mine from the 1984 LS 60 have them.
[Edit]
Just noticed you mentioned already that they are vintage or aged Kluson tuners, so my guess is that the pickups aren't stock either, also because their pole pieces seem larger to me than mine. Did you measure their impedance perhaps (~8.3 kOhm here)?
 
Nope, looking at it again it looks like it's a laminated top (the seam under the is not centered), which makes sense concidering the catalogues says that the '85's had laminated tops... How thick should the laminate be? To me it looks like it's like 0.1 mm's or am I looking at it wrong( I can't really tell where the laminate starts, but it looks like the seam is about 1 cm off center, towards the pup-switch)? Don't think I am. It's possible that the pickups aren't original as well but either way they definitely don't sound bad!
 
Yep, veneer (?laminate?) is wafer thin. At a guess I?d say 0.1mm ? 0.2mm is about right (much thinner than the veneered mahogany used on antique furniture). In addition to the black/gold PAF lable described by Hans, early Tokai humbuckers (Reborn & Love Rock) are often stamped on the base in black ink saying ?Patent Applied For? and ?made by goto? or something similar. Without the fret binding, & with veneer top, I?d guess the guitar is likely to be LS60 ? see the 1985 Cat. which shows LS60 pictured with VF finish (ie Violin Finish ? similar appearance to yours) ? spec says original pup is ?Tokai 57-Vintage? but I?ve no idea what id marks they had. :-?

Ian.
 
CryBaby said:
How thick should the laminate be? To me it looks like it's like 0.1 mm's or am I looking at it wrong( I can't really tell where the laminate starts, but it looks like the seam is about 1 cm off center, towards the pup-switch)
They are usually very thin (less than 0.5 mm), sometimes easier to recognize, sometimes not. As a bookmatched flamed top is only for the looks anyhow, I wouldn't worry too much about it. For example everyone over at the LPF is excited about those "conversion Les Pauls", i.e. former goldtops that have been refinished with a bookmatched flamed maple veneer and 2 or 3 original maple parts underneath it. So this idea can't be that bad, can it? :wink:

It's possible that the pickups aren't original as well but either way they definitely don't sound bad!
Did you measure their impedance perhaps?
 
Oh I forgot to mention that, I don't have a multimeter at the moment, but I might be able to borrow one this weekend and measure the impedance!
(no label under the pup's as i said)

As I said in the beginning of my first post I just wanted to know if it was an LS-80 that it was sold to me as, and judging from the results I'd agree on that it's an LS-60, I still don't care that he "tricked" me, he might not even have known for himself, maybe it was sold to him as an LS-80 as well who knows!

Again, hope I can get some better pics of it, cause it looks MUCH better irl trust me :)
 
CryBaby said:
As I said in the beginning of my first post I just wanted to know if it was an LS-80 that it was sold to me as, and judging from the results I'd agree on that it's an LS-60, I still don't care that he "tricked" me, he might not even have known for himself, maybe it was sold to him as an LS-80 as well who knows!
Why shouldn't it be a LS 80? If it has a 2-piece maple top with flamed veneer and a 1-piece mahogany body, it has the specs of a LS 80, as far as I remember.
 
Sorry for the late response, Yes you're right it COULD be an LS-80, unless the '85 had to have fret-binding... :-?
Anyway, been playing quite a bit on it lately and I'm loving it more every time :) It sounds great and I'm really looking forward to trying different types of pickups to see in what way the sound changes.
Tomorrow I might get a chance to play "live on stage" for the first time ever (well guitar that is)... Going to see a couple of old blues-guys and there's an after-session-jam kinda thing so if I don't totally freak out in the last minute as I probably will(!!) I'll be able to really crank it and see what happens 8)

CryBaby
 
Good to hear you?re enjoying the guitar ? yes afaik it should have fret binding (but also true that by 85 Tokai were offering veneer tops on both LS80 & LS60 ? I think earlier ones were all plain tops, eg 82-ish) ? but otherwise I don?t think it makes any difference, eg I have an LS60 & I reckon it?s a great guitar (inc. stock pups).

Good luck at the Blues Jam ? be sure to go ? even if it?s a bit daunting, you?ll lean things,? & one way or another it?ll probably give you the determination to succeed :-? .

Ian.
 

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