What is up with Japanese nitro?

This thread is really getting tiresome :roll:

marcusnieman said:

This thread is really getting tiresome :roll:

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Then why do you read man!? :lol:
Yeah, I know, it's the impending traffic accident scenario, you just can't help looking.

You know it used to be me that made a lot of the trouble round here!

I'm happy that there are a few different view points coming in here, it helps with true appreciation of things rather than just accepting the summaries of internet opinion.
And by that, all I mean is that people should not take certain things to be true in every case, just because it was said on the internet.

JVsearch said:

Then why do you read man!? :lol:

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With the hope that there might be something relevant to read rather than a pissing contest.

But since that hasn't happened, I just read it to see what the next witty insult is.

(No offense to those who did put up pics and comments of substance - you're why I read)

It is hard to take pictures of the chemical compound 8)

marcusnieman said:

This thread is really getting tiresome :roll:

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it reached that point a long time ago.

why don`t you all ask Myth Busters to do a segment on the poly/lacquer thing so this can be put to rest for good. Maybe they can do tenon lengths too so there will be no need to start threads on that silliness anymore as well.

sneakyjapan said:

why don`t you all ask Myth Busters to do a segment on the poly/lacquer thing so this can be put to rest for good. Maybe they can do tenon lengths too so there will be no need to start threads on that sillyness anymore as well.

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Good idea.
Personally, the only time I think the tenon really matters is on Juniors and SGs (double cut JRs).

Other examples of 'cheap' japanese nitro?

Strange how Koubayashi's posts seem to dance around making any actual point.

If the issue is comparison to the originals, then why single out MIJs? Where's the logic there because I don't see it.

If you were to say: "Is modern 'nitro' really nitro like in the old days?" then game on. We'd be forced to admit that very few manufacturers (in any country) make it just the way they did in the '50s. Cool.

They use plasticisers. They don't check as much (and I've seen case-queens that have checked like mad despite spending most of their lives under beds. It's temperature changes, not amount of play). Fine.

What's it got to do with MIJs in particular? We're saying that, to no one's surprise, they don't use a more '50s style nitro than other countries of manufacture? Wow. Shame on them for not taking a stand and just following industry practise.

And just a p.s., if you're using the word "mojo," in your conclusion, then that word "science" you use? It does not mean what you think it means.

I've a Tokai LS145S (Goldtop) and was toying with the idea of having it "aged."
I phoned a well-known company to inquire and was told that it couldn't be done without taking the entire finish off, refinishing and then ageing.
(Apparently the only way to age a finish is for it to be nitro (lacquer?) to begin with.)

Why? He stated that the undercoat is poly, while a thin layer of lacquer (nitro?) is put on top. Mind you, this is what HE told me.

Now, the Tokai catalogue states "lacquer" for the finish. I don't really know what that means in this context. Does this mean nitro?
Is it a mixture? Or is it as the technician stated to me? I looked up lacquer and nitrocellulose and they appear to be quite different animals.

Anyone know for sure? Thanks for any info.

P.S. I do have a 20+ year old '62 RI Strat that is definitely nitro. Soft finish, I have to be super careful with extreme weather conditions when transporting her.
So, nitro vs. lacquer, that is the question!

Stone Free said:

Now, the Tokai catalogue states "lacquer" for the finish. I don't really know what that means in this context. Does this mean nitro?
Is it a mixture?
So, nitro vs. lacquer, that is the question!

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Finish specs on the Japanese Tokai website: all lacquer(all nitro-LS420/540) and lacquer finish(nitro finish-LS160/260). I think lacquer finish is poly with a lacquer finish on top, not all nitro. http://www1.odn.ne.jp/tokaigakki/products/premium/index.html

Stone Free said:

He stated that the undercoat is poly, while a thin layer of lacquer (nitro?) is put on top. Mind you, this is what HE told me.

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He would be correct. Just about all reasonably priced new guitars are poly sealer coat with either a poly top coat or a nitro (lacquer) top coat.

The specs given in the current Tokai 2010 catalogue indicate that a full nitro ("Lacquer") finish is only available on the most expensive LPs. "Lacquer Finish" can be taken to mean nitro top coat over poly sealer and colour coats.

That web version from felixcatus makes it much more clear, as they use the terms "All Lacquer" and "Lacquer Finish". There may be one Tokai guitar that has a full nitro finish that is cheaper than the LS-420, and that is the HLS-380, but I can't find the details anymore, as it was a limited run.

Some makers like Bacchus call it "Top Lacquer" finish, and it means the top coat is the only nitro coat.

It was the same with the Duncan Fender types in the 90s where the DS-100 level guitars had nitro top coats over poly but the top models (DS-250) were all nitro. I'm not sure where the change over occurred with these ones due to the Japanese pricing/model number confusion. The early DS-200/180 guitars may be all nitro as well.

I can't blame makers for doing it because there is way more drying time needed for nitro before you can put on another coat.

The dealer that I got my Bacchus Duke from told me that lacquer = nitro, and I guess that means, lacquer = what passes for nitro in modern times.

Problem is, you will see many sellers claiming a nitro finish for various used guitars, most will be top coat only.

Felix and JV: Very informative and exactly what I was wanting to know. Darn, it's a shame about the poly undercoat on my LS145S and ES135.
Don't get me wrong, they play, sound and look great, but with nitro it would allow the wood to breathe and allow its tone to be more present,
plus the ageing factor too.

Felix, I've had that link for years and was always puzzled by the Lacquer Finish designation.

Again, thanks to you both for clearing this up!

Bah, don't let it bother you - the weight of opinion seems to be that for tone it's better to have a thin finish, and it doesn't matter what it's made of.

JVsearch said:

Bah, don't let it bother you - the weight of opinion seems to be that for tone it's better to have a thin finish, and it doesn't matter what it's made of.

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Agreed!

Stone Free said:

Felix and JV: Very informative and exactly what I was wanting to know. Darn, it's a shame about the poly undercoat on my LS145S and ES135.
Don't get me wrong, they play, sound and look great, but with nitro it would allow the wood to breathe and allow its tone to be more present,
plus the ageing factor too.

Felix, I've had that link for years and was always puzzled by the Lacquer Finish designation.

Again, thanks to you both for clearing this up!

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I`m afraid a coat of nitro is as impervious to moisture(I presume this is what you mean by the wood "breathing")as a coat of poly,Besides who wants a guitar to breathe especially if it has bad breath!.Youll be wanting your guitars to fart next! :wink: Gabe.

Truth be told, tonally, I can't tell any perceptible difference between an all nitro, nitro/poly or thin poly finish (although, the thick poly coats deaden the tone and sustain to some degree).

There are so many variables like wood, age of wood, pickups, neck, and on and on and on.... that make the real difference in how they sound. Breathing wood?

To me, the whole nitro thing is a selling/value tool... obviously, the higher spec guitars and certainly the vintage guitars used nitro. But they don't sound like they do because of it.

That's just my two cent's on it

From what I understand, poly MUCH more readily fills in ALL the gaps/holes/fissures (i.e. penetrates it more) in the wood, thus keeping manufacturers from not having to put on multiple coats of, say, a nitro finish. This would apparently seal the guitar's wood even more, I would think, thus altering the tonal complexity of the wood (the latter, of course, a huge factor in its type/age ...). Seems a thin coat (or two, idk) of nitro would allow the inherent qualities of the wood to better present itself tonally for not being completely filled in and "choked," for lack of better adjectives.

Hence my reference to "breathing." A completely sealed poly guitar would seem to wind up interacting differently to PUPs, ageing, climate, ... than a nitro one.

Just tryin' to be logimical, ya know.

Stone Free said:

From what I understand, poly MUCH more readily fills in ALL the gaps/holes/fissures (i.e. penetrates it more) in the wood, thus keeping manufacturers from not having to put on multiple coats of, say, a nitro finish. This would apparently seal the guitar's wood even more, I would think, thus altering the tonal complexity of the wood (the latter, of course, a huge factor in its type/age ...). Seems a thin coat (or two, idk) of nitro would allow the inherent qualities of the wood to better present itself tonally for not being completely filled in and "choked," for lack of better adjectives.

Hence my reference to "breathing." A completely sealed poly guitar would seem to wind up interacting differently to PUPs, ageing, climate, ... than a nitro one.

Just tryin' to be logimical, ya know.

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I know what you're saying but due to the viscosity of lacquers and resins, they are not absorbed all the way through the wood....it's porous and the little gaps (microscopic air cells, really) still exist in the wood... the finish is a topical treatment - it doesn't trap the sound within the body.

Some people will argue that the more dense, and heavy wood types produce greater resonance(remember the 14lb Les Pauls and the solid rosewood Tele's?) than more airy woods like Ash because the sound transfer through the body is more direct..... that was the theory behind the Dan Armstrong lucite guitars from the 70's that weighed a ton.

This is always a good discussion because there are so many differing theories and opinions.... but to me, my ear tells me that I can't hear a difference.

There is post and pre-catalysed lacquer.
The pre-cat generally has polymers in it to prevent it from curing too quickly in the can etc.
Pure nitrocellulose will craze/check with temp changes and wood swelling and contracting.

Most nitro manufacturers today to not like their product to craze or check so they add polymers to prevent it as it is primarily used for cabinetry and fine woodworking....people do not like to spend a ton on some custom furniture or kitchen cabinets only to have them check.

The only benefit to nitro, IMO, is the feel factor.
It is not sticky and wears nicely but does not protect or preserve like plastic poly does.


Pure nitro will check however...my 580 Navigator did.