Nice

jacco said:

I don't think you can pull these factors apart in this case. I think that first the importance of glue regarding tone must be determined before we can go any further.

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I think we can safely ignore glue type entirely, because what we should do is compare some of the same guitars with crappy looking joints to those with good joints and see if there's a difference.

No MIJs use hide glue AFAIK so I don't think it's of any relevance.

JVsearch said:

jacco said:

I don't think you can pull these factors apart in this case. I think that first the importance of glue regarding tone must be determined before we can go any further.

Click to expand...

I think we can safely ignore glue type entirely, because what we should do is compare some of the same guitars with crappy looking joints to those with good joints and see if there's a difference.

No MIJs use hide glue AFAIK so I don't think it's of any relevance.

Click to expand...

I wasn't talking about glue type.
If a tenon is a tight fit there's not much place for glue or maybe not much glue needed in the first place. So indeed: is there a difference IN TONE between the ones with more glue (less tight fit) and the ones with a tight fit?

jacco said:

JVsearch said:

jacco said:

I don't think you can pull these factors apart in this case. I think that first the importance of glue regarding tone must be determined before we can go any further.

Click to expand...

I think we can safely ignore glue type entirely, because what we should do is compare some of the same guitars with crappy looking joints to those with good joints and see if there's a difference.

No MIJs use hide glue AFAIK so I don't think it's of any relevance.

Click to expand...

I wasn't talking about glue type.
If a tenon is a tight fit there's not much place for glue or maybe not much glue needed in the first place. So indeed: is there a difference IN TONE between the ones with more glue (less tight fit) and the ones with a tight fit?

Click to expand...

The answer for me Jacco would be..............No (which is my understanding after reading the book, detailed below)

I do suggest to anyone read 'Beauty of The Burst' by Yasuhiko Iwanade, and is has a Foreword by Mr Ted McCarty. There are fantastic articles there that go into depth about why the Les Paul is made the way it is, tone, structure, woods, colours, pickups, etc.......

Very nice section on the neck join.

Possibly the gap IMPROVES the tone!

Maybe you're right. Sounds travels faster through air

Striking a string causes string movements that induce the wood to vibrate in the body and the wood in the neck to vibrate as well, and these neck and body wood vibrations influence how the string movements progress and therefore the tone.

The string movements produce a note made up from a fundamental frequency plus a lot of higher harmonic frequencies and the fundamental and certain harmonic frequencies either get enhanced or diminished by the neck and body wood vibrations and that produces the overall tone (as well as other varying influences like pickups and bridges etc etc)

So the neck and body wood behave like a filter or EQ, enhancing some frequencies and diminishing others.

How the wood in the neck and body vibrate is different for different types of wood and is also different due to the differences that occur in wood from tree to tree and different parts of trees.
All of these wood differences affect how the string vibration progresses after the string is struck and therefore the harmonics of the note and therefore the timbre or tone of the note.

If someone put a bridge on the end of a guitar neck and the strings went from the tuners to the end of the guitar neck then striking a string would induce neck wood vibrations.

There will be neck wood vibrations affecting the overall tone even if the neck is very loosely attached to the body.

It is not necessary for the neck wood to be attached to the body for neck wood vibrations to occur.

The body wood vibrations can of course influence how the neck wood vibrations proceed and vice versa the neck wood vibrations can of course influence how the body wood vibrations proceed and the neck and body vibrations in total affect the overall tone which is why changing necks on a Strat can produce a different overall tone because of the way the new neck wood vibrations are combining with the original body wood vibrations.

Just how much neck wood and body wood contact is needed for the neck and body wood combination vibrations to produce a pleasing tone to the player, well who knows.

In my experience as long as the neck and body vibrations can transfer between each other even by a small area of contact like a shimmed Strat, then that is enough.

Some of these tenon examples don't look that great and some Gibson tenon examples don't look great either but just how much tonal effect these tenons are having could be minimal in the real playing world or hard to judge due to personal tone taste.
As long as the neck vibrations are being transferred to the body and vice versa through the layer of neck pocket tenon glue then the neck vibrations will influence the body vibrations and vice versa for the overall tone.

Strat neck and body vibrations don't have a layer of glue to contend with but all glued in necks and their tenons do have a layer of glue influencing how the body and neck transfer vibrations occur even if it's the greatest looking tenon in the world so Strat necks might be favoured for body and neck vibration transfer because they don't have a layer of glue interfering with the neck and body vibration transfer.

japanstrat said:

...Strat neck and body vibrations don't have a layer of glue to contend with but all glued in necks and their tenons do have a layer of glue influencing how the body and neck transfer vibrations occur even if it's the greatest looking tenon in the world so Strat necks might be favoured for body and neck vibration transfer because they don't have a layer of glue interfering with the neck and body vibration transfer.

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It's the tremolo and, to a lesser extent, the longer scale on a Strat that reduces the sustain compared to a LP.

It's possible that a bolt on neck is the most superior neck joint around!

But, as you say the particular arrangement is just a filter/booster system for the harmonics from the string vibrations, and people like the sound of LPs and Strats.