Looking for some help Identifying this Tokai guitar

Brilliant, thanks Dave!

So I have an LS50 from 1985 that was purchased in the UK by me a few years later new in a shop in Chichester who declared that they had had it in stock for a few years.

It "may" be one of a few with a solid back - very hard to tell.

All these little differences are hard to keep up with - especially when reading post's that are not always clear in which country the guitar or poster reside - which has a lot of import as to the specs.

I like it here.

Barks

ps, Peter, hope I have not derailed your initial question too much, but the responses may have helped both of us!

No problem, the only other thing is yours has double ring deluxe tuners. The double ring are normally only found on the older reborn series. Did you change them?

Dave

Hi Dave,

Yes I replaced them in the mid 90's when the back "pinged" off one of the originals on a gig.
The Schallers were the only ones available at the time that looked correct.
I still have 5 of the originals.

I mentioned it here:

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17818&highlight=

...as its was when the repairman discovered the full headstock mop laminate. The new tuners needed to have the hole drilled out as they have securing nuts.

cheers

barks

Good points made above. Most LS-80's and some LS-60's were flame tops beginning in 1984. The Bell TRC is not original to 1985 models, might be from a reborn like the tuners..

Reborn Old said:

Good points made above. Most LS-80's and some LS-60's were flame tops beginning in 1984. The Bell TRC is not original to 1985 models, might be from a reborn like the tuners..

Click to expand...

Interesting as I never replaced the TRC, and the shop had the guitar in its stock unsold for a number of years.
Why would they just change that part?
The catalogue link posted by Dave above seems to show the 1985 models with Bell TRC's.

I've also already mentioned that I changed the tuners - and still have 5 of the originals.

barks

Barks67 said:

Interesting as I never replaced the TRC, and the shop had the guitar in its stock unsold for a number of years.
Why would they just change that part?
The catalogue link posted by Dave above seems to show the 1985 models with Bell TRC's.
barks

Click to expand...

I can't see the TRCs clearly in the 1985 catalog linked above even at 400% magnification, so I won't comment. Perhaps Tokai used left over Reborn TRCs in 1985 ? I looked at about a dozen 1985's I have on file and most have the TRC that is pointed at both ends found on most Love Rocks from 1980 to 1998. It' not a big deal, as both appear to be Tokai TRCs anyway. I personally prefer the Reborn bell shaped TRC :wink:

i did a little digging and it seems the diamond type and extra dimple was to appease the Gibson legalities of the North American market around this time.

Maybe Tokai could get away with the Bell TRC on the Gibson type headstock in the UK...

Anybody?

cheers

Your's was probably one of the last in UK before the dimple was introduced in the UK. Or the shop imported it directly themselves from Japan. The dimple in the UK still exists to this day.

Dave

Thanks everybody. Very illuminating for me. Always nice to have a little uniqueness thrown in - as they develop their little histories.

Its funny to think that the classic Les Pauls were being revered when they were about 10 years old. Here we are talking about guitars around 25 years old or so.

I will still have all these guitars in 20 years!

barks

Barks67 said:

i did a little digging and it seems the diamond type and extra dimple was to appease the Gibson legalities of the North American market around this time.

Maybe Tokai could get away with the Bell TRC on the Gibson type headstock in the UK...

Anybody?
cheers

Click to expand...

Dimple headstocks are for UK + Korea markets only
Possibly for some UK Love Rocks shipped with bell TRCs, but open book Japan models had pointed TRCs for the most part, as does Brandei's UK 1985 LS model in the first post..

Thanks again.
Thought it best to describe the TRC here.

It is not beveled (smooth) at the edge but is "stepped" between the laminates.

Is that similar to the ones on the Reborns?

I also notice that its serial is somewhat lower than the OP.
Mine ends 31058 and the OPs is 31703, so maybe there were left overs from the older specs when mine was manufactured.

I must admit I have no idea how the Tokai numbering scheme works after the year date number.

its interesting that we have two guitars here from the same year, both from UK but different headstock and TRC, and I am utterly convinced mine has original TRC and one piece mahogany body as opposed to two piece.

Also do the screw points match up between the two types of TRC as there are no signs of new holes here?

I guess next stop is look in the pup cavity for markings.

cheers

barks

Barks67 said:

I guess next stop is look in the pup cavity for markings.
barks

Click to expand...

You might find "CS" in magic marker in your neck pickup cavity for the finish type. CS= cherry sunburst

Reborn Old said:

Barks67 said:

I guess next stop is look in the pup cavity for markings.
barks

Click to expand...

You might find "CS" in magic marker in your neck pickup cavity for the finish type. CS= cherry sunburst

Click to expand...

Nothing in there.

The tenon joint is about an inch long from the end of the fretboard is all I could see of interest.

Sometimes the color code gets routed away to fit deeper '57 PAF pickups. There is a black and gold 57'PAF sticker on the back of the pickups if that's what you have....or marking was done only by certain techs.

Thanks for the illuminating search!

The pickups in mine where replaced with SD vintage pafs when I bought it, so I have no recollection of what the originals had on them.

I think I swapped them for an old valve copicat at the time.

So it seems I have an early 1985 LS50 with a two piece plain maple top (though it does have some lovely figuring that catches the light differently every time!) and a one piece mahogany back and non export headstock (no dimple) and bell trc.

cheers

barks

Barks67 said:

Reborn Old said:

Good points made above. Most LS-80's and some LS-60's were flame tops beginning in 1984. The Bell TRC is not original to 1985 models, might be from a reborn like the tuners..

Click to expand...

Interesting as I never replaced the TRC, and the shop had the guitar in its stock unsold for a number of years.
Why would they just change that part?
The catalogue link posted by Dave above seems to show the 1985 models with Bell TRC's.

I've also already mentioned that I changed the tuners - and still have 5 of the originals.

barks

Click to expand...

When clearing out old drawers and boxes, I found the old tuners AND the exploded one - the back pinged off suddenly during a gig. This was around 94-95 or so and the replacements were the Schallers. I actually did not notice that these were single rings etc, just glad to have the guitar back working.

Anybody have this issue before?

It's the little "nibs" that hold the assembly together that failed, as if there was not quite enough metal to bend over onto the backplate when it was made.

I also changed the Strat's tuners at the same time as I noticed one of them was a little loose too.

The debate over model id's of 85's seems to run and run. It would seem that there a lot of Love rock's from that year with specs that vary from what we expect. I always thought that the clearest identification spec of LS80's and above was the neck break angle (18 degrees) and possibly the pick ups. The LS80 has Tokai PAF 57's. However there are a number of guitars that have these feature but don't have FEB (I'm talking about 1985 specifically) and a couple I have seen that have plain tops. Just for the record here is my 1985. There are discussions as to whether this is a 50 60 or 80. It has a plain top the finish is old sunburst it has a one piece back (probably.... another thing that is notoriously difficult to identify). Tokai uncovered zebra PAF 57's and a 18 degree headstock. I've never bothered to test for nitro...it has a very very thin laquer that I will test one day. Still it feels much more like other 80's that I have played rather than the one 50 I have had in my hands. Oh it's a UK model with dimple just to add confusion and it didn't have a bell trc although it does now, I still have the original. Hope I'm not talking rubbish


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That's interesting Steve.

As I've never attempted it before, I decided to try and measure the headstock angle - as mine looks identical to yours with regards rake angle.

I was surprised to find it is also 18 degree's like yours.





So the specs for my 1985 LS seem to be:
Two piece plain (slightly flamed) maple top
A definite one piece mahogany body - check the pics in the earlier posts above, especially the end body angled grain
Non dimple headstock and original bell TRC and no FEB
18 degree headstock - well definitely not 14 degrees.
Poly, NOT nitro, but it is definitely quite thin on the front

I cannot remember the markings on the original pups but they were exposed cream types - I have replaced the tuners.

It does seem that it went a bit odd this year.
Maybe there were some asembled body- neck units that at the last minute were deemed not quite up to the scratch for LS80 - so they downgraded a few bits and slapped on the 50-60 sticker instead?

stevesemaphore said:

The debate over model id's of 85's seems to run and run. It would seem that there a lot of Love rock's from that year with specs that vary from what we expect. I always thought that the clearest identification spec of LS80's and above was the neck break angle (18 degrees) and possibly the pick ups. The LS80 has Tokai PAF 57's. However there are a number of guitars that have these feature but don't have FEB (I'm talking about 1985 specifically) and a couple I have seen that have plain tops. Just for the record here is my 1985. There are discussions as to whether this is a 50 60 or 80. It has a plain top the finish is old sunburst it has a one piece back (probably.... another thing that is notoriously difficult to identify). Tokai uncovered zebra PAF 57's and a 18 degree headstock. I've never bothered to test for nitro...it has a very very thin laquer that I will test one day. Still it feels much more like other 80's that I have played rather than the one 50 I have had in my hands. Oh it's a UK model with dimple just to add confusion and it didn't have a bell trc although it does now, I still have the original. Hope I'm not talking rubbish

Click to expand...

To add to the knowledge it would be great if you could check for nitro.
If you do I would use lacquer thinner in stead of acetone. The early Tokai examples whipe off pretty easy with acetone but the later ones I have heard different stories about.

Is there anyone here who knows when Tokai went from a 14 degree to an 18 degree heastcok angle on the lower end models?

Barks67 said:

Non dimple headstock and original bell TRC and no FEB

Click to expand...

Why again do you think the bell TRC is original?

I'm sorry Jacco but I thought I had mentioned that a page back and there was no further response or discussion except a small mention form Reborn Old?

Interesting as I never replaced the TRC, and the shop had the guitar in its stock unsold for a number of years.
Why would they just change that part?
The catalogue link posted by Dave above seems to show the 1985 models with Bell TRC's.

Click to expand...

Possibly for some UK Love Rocks shipped with bell TRCs, but open book Japan models had pointed TRCs for the most part, as does Brandei's UK 1985 LS model in the first post..

Click to expand...

It is original in that I never changed it and bought the guitar new in 1990 - NOS - and it is of course possible the shop replaced it to make it attractive to sell.
It appears that there are enough anomalies and confusion around some 1985 made guitars that anything seems possible.