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Plaintop LS150 vs. Flametop/Sunburst UK LS150
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looktoyourorb
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah that crossed my mind!
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JVsearch
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Joined: 01 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

looktoyourorb wrote:
+1 for medium tenon

Long tenons extend to the middle of the pickup cavity (roughly).


I think we better refer to this tenon as a long tenon (that isn't quite as long as some other long tenons).
The medium tenon does not extend into the pickup cavity at all, and the short tenon doesn't even appear at the front edge of the pickup cavity (Gibson USA).

So this is a long tenon, and this guitar is at least in the LS-135F/150 class.
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JVsearch
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diamond wrote:
If it's a medium tenon then it can only be an LS85/98F...because the LS125/135/140F have a deep joint.

If that's the case then the seller is pulling a con.


That is an LS-150/135F tenon.

The only possible con is whether it has a veneer top or not, and that's not really a bad con. Still, a person needs to know about the specs before they can offer a price.

Options:
1. LS-135/140F
2. LS-150/160 with very flamey top (usually only seen on the UK models?)
3. LS-250/260 with better than usual top
4. Even higher model LS, but the fret board looks like pretty normal rosewood for LS-135/140F/150/160/250/260

This is how I see it, but if I'm wrong please jump in and slam me down...
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Amo
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JVsearch wrote:

I think we better refer to this tenon as a long tenon (that isn't quite as long as some other long tenons).
The medium tenon does not extend into the pickup cavity at all, and the short tenon doesn't even appear at the front edge of the pickup cavity (Gibson USA).


+1
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Diamond
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JVsearch wrote:
looktoyourorb wrote:
+1 for medium tenon

Long tenons extend to the middle of the pickup cavity (roughly).


I think we better refer to this tenon as a long tenon (that isn't quite as long as some other long tenons).
The medium tenon does not extend into the pickup cavity at all, and the short tenon doesn't even appear at the front edge of the pickup cavity (Gibson USA).

So this is a long tenon, and this guitar is at least in the LS-135F/150 class.


Here's a photo of an LS90/105Q tenon, someone posted it here, can't remember who...medium neck tenon.

The way I understand it a short tenon (Gibson) doesn't extend into the pickup cavity at all, a medium does...and a long extends even further by about 5mm.



And a Les Paul Studio.

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Diamond
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So we can see a medium, and a short, can someone please post a long?
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Wozob
I only know 3 chords


Joined: 14 Mar 2010
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Location: Rijswijk, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the tenon of my UK LS-150. Looks the same as the guitar we're talking about in this thread.

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DaveWW
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good informative thread here.

Takes some reading but worth it!

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=8444&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=tenon+length&start=0


Dave
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looktoyourorb
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So we have:

Short tenons
Medium tenons
Medium long tenons
Long tenons
"Not quite as long as a long tenon but still a long" tenons


- time to get back to bolt-on necks!

So there is an interesting theory saying the lip in the pickup cavity has nothing to do with the length of the tenon, it is only there as a neck reinforcement. The nature of the tenon depends on how deep the butt of the neck is...that makes my SG a long tenon then as standards' neck go up to the pickup cavity...

I always thought the lip (glued to the body) was part of the neck joint structure and as such part of the tenon.

Maybe there should be a 1$ fine for everybody writing the words tenon or lawsuit in their posts!
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JVsearch
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Joined: 01 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diamond wrote:
Here's a photo of an LS90/105Q tenon, someone posted it here, can't remember who...medium neck tenon.

The way I understand it a short tenon (Gibson) doesn't extend into the pickup cavity at all, a medium does...and a long extends even further by about 5mm.


Yep spot on, that's how I understand it as well.
The problem seems to be arising due to the fact that on some photos it's hard to see the extra bit in the pickup cavity filling the routed area in front of the edge of the cavity at the end of the neck.

Sometimes it looks like the routed bit is hollow (no little extra bit on the end of the neck that fills it) - this is a medium tenon.

If this is technically or scientifically wrong, fine, somebody correct me, but the important thing is that we are all on the same page. The LS-150 has a long tenon, end of story, and it's just getting confusing having people chime in saying they don't see it as a long tenon...
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Last edited by JVsearch on Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Diamond
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All Tokais have at least a medium neck tenon, that's all that matters.

The difference between short and medium is substantial (check the photos I posted)...the difference between medium and long is almost irrelevant.
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JohnA
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diamond wrote:
All Tokais have at least a medium neck tenon, that's all that matters.

The difference between short and medium is substantial (check the photos I posted)...the difference between medium and long is almost irrelevant.


I would argue that neither is that important, there are some great guitars without medium or long tenons, and some pretty shitty ones with long tenons too, the quality of the work in whatever construction method that is used is the important bit, an inch of additional wood on the neck has little effect on the quality of tone IMO.
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Krank
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Joined: 06 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could you please give me an estimated value (in ?) of the one I've posted? Year 2006, flamed top, changed hardware, etc. Unfortunately I can't go play it first.
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JVsearch
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Joined: 01 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krank wrote:
Could you please give me an estimated value (in ?) of the one I've posted? Year 2006, flamed top, changed hardware, etc. Unfortunately I can't go play it first.


I can't - unsure whether it is an LS-135F or a flamed LS-150 or a much higher model. Sorry.
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JVsearch
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diamond wrote:
All Tokais have at least a medium neck tenon, that's all that matters.

The difference between short and medium is substantial (check the photos I posted)...the difference between medium and long is almost irrelevant.


+1000

But the thing that really makes the Gibson tenon lousy is not primarily the shortness of it (it's not shorter than the tenon used on ES-335s or SGs for example) but the uneven bottom surface that allows them to rock the neck up and down to get the right neck angle.
It's a clever idea (from a production point of view) but ultimately I think you need people with as much skill to get it right as you do to cut the neck tenons with the correct angle already!
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