Removed

Wicked-Tone,

Mocking, kicking around, is not the point at all.
Yeah post could be kinder at times.
But
Really a lot of knowing folks here.
And trying to help as well.

If you decide to keep that mentioned guitar... then yeah, let's hear about it, and share pic's, it helps to inform us all.

Your post are important as there is a general opinion from this Forum that Tokai claims not to have licensed that guitar. But who knows "....The Whole Story.."

Let's find out.

Well done special K,you've done it again... :roll:

Wicked tone, forget the ramblings of this bloke and ask all the questions you like, special K knows nothing about these guitars. I would be glad to tell you anything you would like to know about the fake Tokai's as i have been in touch with Tokai and a couple of guys in Canada and have hundreds of pictures of the fakes. I can give you just about any info you need or would like to know about these guitars as i have researched these for over 2 years, this is NOT speculation, it is all proven and verified. Sorry about the small minded rubbish you have had to put up with as most members are great people.

Mick

Great way of treating a new member who was just excited about his new purchase. Some of you really know how to welcome a newbie.

Let's not forget that most Tokai guitars are knockoffs of Gibsons and Fenders. Some snobs on this forum wouldn't have bought a Tokai when it first came out 30 years ago cause it just isn't a Gibson or a Fender. You guys are forgetting what Tokai stands for: quality guitars without ridiculous price tags. A no name brand becomes a brand name and it appears to have its share of blind followers and pretenders.

About the "criminals" making the fakais, the name Les Paul is a registered trademark and thus Tokai has been a criminal in the past. I think that is a little too extreme a statement. It is true that using trademarks without a licence is illegal. But Wicked Tone found out and knew the guitar was a fake, and he still was happy with what he had.

About the "criminals" making the fakais, the name Les Paul is a registered trademark and thus Tokai has been a criminal in the past. I think that is a little too extreme a statement. It is true that using trademarks without a licence is illegal. But Wicked Tone found out and knew the guitar was a fake, and he still was happy with what he had.

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Only in western law, How can Japan be doing this illegally when it doesn't recognise western law. The Japanese have never had "copyright" laws because they are always trying to make things better than the last attempt, so throughout Japans history imitation has always been in some ways a form of flattery along the way to perfection. They took a design that had merit and reproduced it to a higher standard as they always have, all the copyright laws did for companies like Gibson was to let them sit on their laurels and get complacent, making crap guitars for a premium, the Japanese have helped them lift their game. I agree with the rest of your post... :wink:

Mick

They do have copyright laws which are similar to those in the west, along with laws for other intellectual properties. Whether those laws were stringently enforced in the late 70's is a different issue and was probably what you were intending to address. I guess back in those days Japan was much like China in the present day. There were cases of conspicuous infringement of intellectual property, but the authorities just did not enforce the rules :-?

I tend to agree with Special K's sentiments....maybe there was a better way of approaching it sure...but I understand where he was coming from.
We all get frustrated by people continuing to say things like..."I don't care what you guys say...I'll continue to call my guitar an unofficial Tokai"....although i really don't think this was the original poster's intentions.
If someone is happy with their purchase REGARDLESS of whether it's a Tokai or not then more power to them...

Ozeshin said:

If someone is happy with their purchase REGARDLESS of whether it's a Tokai or not then more power to them...

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well said

poor lad,but i do understand where the fakery frustration comes from ...

Ozeshin said:

I tend to agree with Special K's sentiments....maybe there was a better way of approaching it sure...but I understand where he was coming from.
We all get frustrated by people continuing to say things like..."I don't care what you guys say...I'll continue to call my guitar an unofficial Tokai"....although i really don't think this was the original poster's intentions.
If someone is happy with their purchase REGARDLESS of whether it's a Tokai or not then more power to them...

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There had been a consensus reached that in fact these Korean Canadian LPs were pretty good guitars, at least as good as the actual Korean Tokais, hadn't there?

There are some other fakes that have unknown body wood, necks made in 3 parts and rubbish hardware that are, basically firewood (but don't breathe any of the smoke), but the Canadian ones from Korea are at least still properly constructed LPs aren't they?

lol

How much money does Tokai Japan make when a Fakai is manufactured and sold?
Answer - nothing.

So please explain to me why the producer of the Fakais is not a criminal?

Minoupark said:

Let's not forget that most Tokai guitars are knockoffs of Gibsons and Fenders. .

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Except Tokai doesn't put the name Gibson or Fender on their headstocks...or did you forget about that?

Ozeshin said:

If someone is happy with their purchase REGARDLESS of whether it's a Tokai or not then more power to them...

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I agree...however, notice what's happened around here...people now discuss how the Fakais are pretty well made decent playing and sounding guitars.

Who cares if they're pretty good, they're illegal fakes...they should be destroyed, not enjoyed.

IMO of course.

Diamond said:

lol

How much money does Tokai Japan make when a Fakai is manufactured and sold?
Answer - nothing.

So please explain to me why the producer of the Fakais is not a criminal?

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Criminal is a bit strong - haven't you noticed that white collar offenders are not criminals and do not go to jail? Half of the Fortune 500 probably stole the ideas for their wonderful enterprises, and to be fair, Tokai took the design for the Reborn/Love Rock from Gibson (which is legal apart from the headstock and depending on what country you're in).

Still, Fakais are illegal, but we're not talking about that at the moment (it's well known already). The guy has a guitar and thinks it is actually pretty decent, and a few people on here have said in the past that they're pretty decent as well, that's it.

I agree that so long as a fakai builder puts Tokai on the headstock, he's trying to make the sale based on the brand identity of Tokai, and therefore I find it hard to argue that such an act isn't illegal. It doesn't really matter how well made it is if its trying to be passed off as a legitimate Tokai. On the other hand, if they copy everything and uses Fakai or something other than Tokai on the headstock, I personally might be interested

If the Tokai factory starts churning out guitars with Fender or Gibson on their headstocks, I wouldn't buy one at all. You can call them, harshly if I may add, copycats but they certainly aren't lying cheats. Fakais on the other hand.....:evil:

Diamond said:

Who cares if they're pretty good, they're illegal fakes...they should be destroyed, not enjoyed.

IMO of course.

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Probably what various execs at Fender & Gibson have said in the past about Tokais, & definitely something that the Rickenbacker boss would say today.

Let's all be thankful that a more enlightened attitude prevailed, eh Diamond? :wink:

Destroying guitars is close to burning books. IMHO, of course.

It is my understanding that to prevent a breach of copyright law you have to have 5 unique points of difference in the design. In this case it is a trade descriptions violation as it is not made by the company on the logo.

This is the same as counterfeit(?) goods - UK customs seize and use a road roller to destroy. Make lots of matchsticks!

JVsearch said:

Diamond said:

lol

How much money does Tokai Japan make when a Fakai is manufactured and sold?
Answer - nothing.

So please explain to me why the producer of the Fakais is not a criminal?

Click to expand...

The guy has a guitar and thinks it is actually pretty decent, and a few people on here have said in the past that they're pretty decent as well, that's it.

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I didn't mean to offend the guy, I think he overreacted a little...I apologize to him if he's reading this.

Let's put it this way, I wouldn't enjoy playing a Fakai...but that's just me.

Diamond said:

Let's put it this way, I wouldn't enjoy playing a Fakai...but that's just me.

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Fair enough, neither would I. But I wouldn't enjoy playing a Rickenbacker either, but some people love them.

Horses for courses. :wink:

stratman323 said:

Diamond said:

Who cares if they're pretty good, they're illegal fakes...they should be destroyed, not enjoyed.

IMO of course.

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Let's all be thankful that a more enlightened attitude prevailed, eh Diamond? :wink:

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True...

I agree everybody just buying whatever they want,it?s OK.
I don?t have any interest in these Fakais as you call them and in chinese Tokais also.I have seen two I consider poor made or at least not at the same ninimum acceptable level I think Tokai should be to me.

I?m a Tokai fan as I have told many many times and I?ll be it forever regarding I?m not able to get my Tokai guitar dream.But I have guitars from other brands I came to the conclussion are very very good guitars so why not to keep and enjoy them?

Diamond,
Please read my previous comments again and if you still don't understand, read on.

I never said that the act of using a trademark without a consent from the owner, which the fakai manufacturers are doing, is not an illegal activity. I actually commented that it is indeed illegal. The point in discussion is not about whether such activities are illegal, but whether it was appropriate to associate the term "criminal" to a newcomer's guitar.

It is up to the consumer to decide whether he/she wants a brand name knockoff. In the current case, Wicked Tone was happy to have the guitar and it is safe to guess that he wanted it. Even after finding out that the guitar was a fake.

Let's talk about what Tokai did in the past according to your reasoning.
Tokai infringed the trademark "Les Paul" owned by Gibson and produced guitars that surpassed the originals. I am certain that the use of the trademark significantly contributed to the sales. That led to loss in income for Gibson. Lawsuits were filed and either they negotiated to an agreement or Tokai lost the case, officially becoming a "criminal". Even if the former were the case, it is clear that Tokai breached the trademark law and resulted in loss of income for Gibson. I wonder how much market share they lost due to Tokai but I bet it it was/is pretty big. Possibly larger than the loss to Tokai due to current fakais, judging from the lack of lawsuits by Tokai against fakai manufacturers and that Tokai is having a hard time just completing their current backlog of orders. So from all this, it is reasonable to conclude that Tokai could possibly be a bigger "criminal" according to your logic. Diamond, you are selling and endorsing a "criminal", who initiated the whole chain reaction of making fake Les Pauls (according to your logic, of course). True that Tokai put their name on the guitars, but the fact that they used the trademark "Les Paul" on their guitars that are identical in design to that of Gibson (which was not protected for some odd reason), should add up to an act of crime according to your logic. Kinda like a terrorist group claiming they committed a certain act of terror. Claiming does not justify the "crime".

If you did not think you comments would offend Wicked Tone, my comments should definitely not offend you. While I found that comments by Special K had valid points, I cannot find any in yours. :roll: :roll: