LS150 caps and bumble bees

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jackspack

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Hi,
I have a 2007 LS150 with big orange capacitors...may get a picture up with this, may not....what will they be? I think they may be Orange Drops, but only from the way they look, there is no 'name' on them.
Should I change them to bumble bees?
Thanks for any help
Jack
 
jackspack said:
Hi,
I have a 2007 LS150 with big orange capacitors...may get a picture up with this, may not....what will they be? I think they may be Orange Drops, but only from the way they look, there is no 'name' on them.
Should I change them to bumble bees?
Thanks for any help
Jack

They're Orange Drops or an equivalent. In my opinion, there's not a thing on an LS150 that needs to be changed.
 
This is what my stock 2009 LS150 control pocket looked like and is probably the same as your 2007 LS150 with Orange Drops, 430k (average) CTS pots & modern wiring.

P1020074.jpg


This is what my 2009 LS150 control cavity looks like now with matched 540k CTS Super Pots, vintage braided 50''s wiring, and the real deal Sprague tone caps (same as bumble bees just wearing a different jacket).

P2150180.jpg


Big difference in tone, feel and cosmetics between the two but not because of just changing the tone caps. Collectively, I achieved the tone look and feel, I knew I would get, by changing the already great parts to greater parts. All said the LS150 is turn key right out of the box (needs nothing) but the changes I made is what satisfies my personal taste.
 
Thanks both, thats helpful. May have a tinker, though I accept the quality of what I already have. I can always change it back.
Were the changed electrics a kit, or home wiring and parts?
 
jackspack said:
Thanks both, thats helpful. May have a tinker, though I accept the quality of what I already have. I can always change it back.
Were the changed electrics a kit, or home wiring and parts?

RS Guitarworks has the pots and braided wire, the Sprague tone caps I removed from a 1952 am radio, they are the same as bumble bees just different color of jacket. When looking inside the control cavity of my LS150 it is about what you'd see in an old 50's LP. The reason I use the RS Super pots is because of their taper and they are closer to the 500k which provide more sweep with volume and tone. The stock CTS pots that the LS150 uses are generally around 430k.
 
Thanks again. Did you do it all yourself? I have just been looking at wiring diagrams, at my LS, at wiring diagrams, at my...you get the picture. There is a lot more wire (!) in mine, and I cant seem to place one bit from the other! Not sure what I am asking you, except I see RS and others do kits...
 
jackspack said:
Thanks again. Did you do it all yourself? I have just been looking at wiring diagrams, at my LS, at wiring diagrams, at my...you get the picture. There is a lot more wire (!) in mine, and I cant seem to place one bit from the other! Not sure what I am asking you, except I see RS and others do kits...

The reason there seems to be more wire in yours is because the leads for the toggle switch and input jack are single conductor and therefore require and use an extra wire for the ground. Where as, with braided wire the ground runs through the braided jacket which is the ground/shield, thus eliminating the need for the extra wire. Braided wire is 2 conductor. In any case if your not sure of what your doing either have someone who does do the mod for you or just leave it as is. Also, here is the correct wiring scheme for the vintage 50's circuit, it's pretty much self explanatory.

Schematic2.jpg
 
I've also got an LS150VF so it's great to have those before and after pictures in the identical cavity, thanks.

I'm not planning on changing the caps, but I am thinking of going to 50s wiring. The guitar already sounds very woody and airy, almost like a mic'd up acoustic.

What do you reckon is the difference in tone made by 50s wiring on your guitar? And how much of that difference do you attribute to also changing the caps?
 
singemonkey said:
I've also got an LS150VF so it's great to have those before and after pictures in the identical cavity, thanks.

I'm not planning on changing the caps, but I am thinking of going to 50s wiring. The guitar already sounds very woody and airy, almost like a mic'd up acoustic.

What do you reckon is the difference in tone made by 50s wiring on your guitar? And how much of that difference do you attribute to also changing the caps?

Modern wiring, which is the way Tokai wires the LS150 is warmer/darker and more compressed and highs are lost when volumes are rolled down if treble bleeds kits are not installed.

50's wiring, is more open and clearer, and the highs are retained when volumes are rolled down. Also, one of the most noticeable changes I made was to the neck pickup circuit where I replaced the stock .022 tone cap with an .005 value cap making the neck pickup less darker/muddy.

Again, the changes I made are collective and IMO even replacing the stock wire with braided wire made a subtle difference in MOJO, even if just nostalgia.
 
These Caps are bumblebee workalikes, I have them in my humbucker kitted Mahogany Tele, and I must say they are amazing and really add some character

http://www.singlecoil.com/shop.html
 
Easy Crossing said:
Big difference in tone, feel and cosmetics between the two but not because of just changing the tone caps. Collectively, I achieved the tone look and feel, I knew I would get, by changing the already great parts to greater parts.

IMHO this change is more about the looks and psychoacustics than about the actual sound of the guitar. The biggest dfiierence here in sound is made with the wiring change.

Matti
 
mattim said:
IMHO this change is more about the looks and psychoacustics than about the actual sound of the guitar. The biggest dfiierence here in sound is made with the wiring change.

Matti

Agreed. Changing the wiring layout would make a much, much bigger difference than upgrading already high-quality parts.

Although I am forced to admit I still get a warm fuzzy feeling whenever I look at the cloth-covered wire that I upgraded my tele with :lol:
 
540k pots have more sweep and resistance than 430k pots, resistance will affect tone. How much of a noticeable difference depends on how much resistance is placed on the circuit when turning the knobs.
 
Easy Crossing said:
540k pots have more sweep and resistance than 430k pots, resistance will affect tone. How much of a noticeable difference depends on how much resistance is placed on the circuit when turning the knobs.

Also agreed, changing the values of internal components is usually much more important than just changing from one type to another.
 
Paladin2019 said:
Easy Crossing said:
540k pots have more sweep and resistance than 430k pots, resistance will affect tone. How much of a noticeable difference depends on how much resistance is placed on the circuit when turning the knobs.

Also agreed, changing the values of internal components is usually much more important than just changing from one type to another.

The biggest reason I almost always change to the RS CTS pots as they are always (value correct) and they just feel better to me, probably due to the taper and matching. IMO there's something about the pots being matched that seems to help when switching between p/u's or when adjusting for tone.

I think RS (who are musicians themselves) says it best:

Who this kit is for: The Vintage Upgrade Kits offer a warmer, woody tone.

Anyone who is tired of not being able to use the controls on your guitar effectively. This kit is also great for those who are tired of losing tone and note-definition every time they roll their control past 8!!

How this kit improves your tone:

All of the above components combine to create unprecedented clarity in your overall tone. This increase in clarity will also equate to an increase in note bloom, harmonic complexity, and, in some cases, sustain. Because this kit increases the usability and intuitiveness of the controls onboard your guitar, you will achieve tones that you didn?t think were possible. The Vintage Upgrade Kits offer a warmer, woody tone.
 
Some time ago I made a device for instant switching between two components. Instant switching allows to detect even minor tone changes.
I use it, among other purposes, for testing guitar tone capacitors.
If you can reliably detect which capacitor is playing in a blind test, then you can decide which one is the best... for you.

A friend, a very experienced guitarrist, and me tested several tone caps in a Gibson LP Standard plugged into a Plexi. There were Bumblebees replicas, polypropylene and ceramic caps. I measured all them to have identical capacitance. We tested these caps with the pot ranging from 10 to 0 position.

Results: at first we though there were minor differences between them. But after repeating the test several times, we were unable to reliably detect which cap was playing. We were unable to hear any difference. So that, I sold the bumblebee replicas.

Later we made another test for coupling caps in a JTM 45. We tested NOS moustard caps, sozo and polypropylene. In this case, my friend was able to detect some minor differences. It was also a blind test. The best tone for his ears was produced by the polypropilene and the worst was the NOS Mustard!
 
Having just played my LS, the tone pots work, the volme pots work, it doesn't get muddy except when it really should. Makes you wonder what I was thinking when I ordered the new stuff.
Oh well, live and learn, I hope it is better, whatever that is....thanks for all the comments, knowledge and advice.
 

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