LS 320 on ebay

Hi everyone,

this is my first post on this forum. Been reading for a while, though, as I?m interested in buying a Love Rock. But until then I?m not a Tokai owner.

I?ve just been looking at this auction at ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=38086&item=3754747555&rd=1

Is that really an LS 320? I won?t buy that guitar, so I?m not really that concerned, but with the Tokai labeling being what it is, how can one know that the mentioned axe isn?t an LS 80F or the like?

Thanks,

Kaloosey

Looks ok to me. The key indicator is the binding covering the fret ends, something only seen on the LS320.

Personally I don't rate this style of binding very highly, but if you're going to make a perfect Gibson replica then that's how you do it. :lol:

Hi Kaloosey ? ha, .. you don?t need a Tokai to join in here ? welcome to the Forum :-? .

You?re right, it?s often tricky to identify different Tokai Les Paul models (especially from photos). But close examination shows that each model has it?s own tell tale signs.

The first thing on a 320 is that it should have Seth Lovers (as stated in that guys advert), but of course pups & hardware can always be changed. However, it also has a solid capped top (not veneer) & you can check that by removing the neck pup ? in which case you?ll also see that it has a long neck tennon (ie projecting into the pup cavity). Also has binding extended over the fret ends. Think it also has 18 deg. headstock angle if I recall correctly (it?s 14 deg. on cheaper models ? except pre-79 Reborn LS80 & above) :-? .

Ian.

Whoops, ? sorry Paladin, our replies just crossed in the ether ? didn?t mean to repeat your observation re. fret binding :-? .

Ian.

hehe :wink:

Another way to tell is where the stop tailpiece is positioned compared to the control knobs. The 320 is positioned the same as a 50's lester even though the bridge is 1/8" closer to the tailpiece than a real lester. I"m not sure about the position on a 200 but the cheaper models are not the same.

Hi Paladin, Ian and Tubedog,

thanks a lot for your replies. You?ve given me interesting information on the topic! I didn?t know that the fret binding and the tailpiece position are different on higher grade Tokai LS.

When I see a Les Paul Copy auction where the seller states that the flame/quilted maple top is solid, I always look for a photo of the neck pickup cavity... sometimes one can spot a veneer there :-? . Strange...

The ebay offer of the mentioned guitar didn?t include a photo like that. However, the seller has already stopped the auction for whatever reason.

Anyway, right now I?m looking for a new LS80F or LS85Q (hope to get one for about 750 Euros /930 US-$/515 Pounds) or for an older, used model. I own an Epi LP Standard Copy which I regard as neither very bad nor very good... it fits my playing abilities, really.

Thanks again,

Kaloosey

Hi Kaloosey ? the plain-grained tops are ?always? solid (ie 1cm maple cap), but flamed or figured tops are ?always? veneered, except on LS320 (& maybe older models above LS150). I think the tailpiece position is tricky to spot, because it?s movable on the studs.

For 750EU you should get a very nice Tokai ? personally at that price I?d definitely be looking for a vintage model, which I regard as more desirable than any new guitar (I?d much rather have a 1979 LS80 Reborn than any new LS320). Best of luck with the search (watch out, prices are rising pretty fast).

Ian.
ps:- I put "always" in quotes, because nothing in life is certain, there's always the odd exception :-? .

Ochay - if you want to make remarks like "you're so full of crap", then stick it on the Forum for all to see, don't send me any more childish PM's like that.

Ian.

Hi Ian,

thanks for the info. The LS 200 also has a veneer, then?

I can get a new japanese Tokai LS with flamed or quilted veneer here in Germany for about 750 Euros. Maybe ordering from a shop in Japan could save me a few cents, but I don?t know if it?s worth the potential hassle with intercontinental bank transfers and customs. However, I wouldn?t mind to spend less for a used guitar

I?d like to know why you prefer older models. Do you believe them to be technically superior for some reason, is it "vibe", or is it a collector?s interest?

Regards,

Kaloosey

Hi all,

the auction at ebay showed definitely a 320. This is the only Tokai model being custom-made. It's easy to tell from the regular models by it's tuner line-up. Other hints are the different routings for both Pu-cavities or headstock wood veneer instead of plastic and many else little details like e.g. the longshaft CTS-pots due to a less deeper control-cavity routing...

The LS-200 is manufactured at Tokais with the regular tooling machines. It offers a solid flametop and since the mid-80ties an ebony fretboard, but neither honduras mahogany nor brazilian fretboard wood and it's not fully nitro laquered like the 320, only the top clear coat.

I would always prefer a 320 to 200 nowadays, but if you can get a late '79 to '81 LS-200, don't hesitate. These ones are comparable with the contemporary 320 concerning wood material and construction but usually won't sell under 2k.

ian said:

Hi Kaloosey ? the plain-grained tops are ?always? solid (ie 1cm maple cap), but flamed or figured tops are ?always? veneered, except on LS320 (& maybe older models above LS150). I think the tailpiece position is tricky to spot, because it?s movable on the studs.

.

Click to expand...

Ian, what I'm talking about is laying a straight edge along the back of the taipliece and seeing where it lines up on the neck volume control. You can't change that by adjusting the tailpiece up and down. It's a difference of 1/8" between the 320 and say and LS80. Where the cutaway joins the neck is different as well and is the way the switchring lines up with the neck pup. These are of course real subtle but unrefuteable differences. All the routes are different too like Supernout says. FWIW I would take a new LS320 sight unseen over an older LS80 sight unseen any day as far as tone, playability, and build. An old 150 or 200 is another story. These new 320's while not detail correct to an old burst are super tight, masterfully built fiddles with lots of vibe and tone.

Hi Kaloosey ? I?m not at all sure at which point in time, or which model range, Tokai began using solid flamed tops. The 320 is certainly supposed to be solid, although I think it?s largely made to order, so you can specify plain top or flame.

There was some debate here recently about whether older LS120 had solid flamed top or veneer (try a search), but a few showed up on eBay & they all seemed to have veneer, it?s often tricky to spot even with pups removed (Ochay is obviously feeling sore about it, hence toys out of the pram).

Between the LS320 and older LS120 we have what seems to me a grey area where LS150 & LS200 might have solid flamed tops, or might have been solid at some previous date, or maybe not. But if the flamed tops are/were ever solid, then it?s not clear to me which models got it, or what date that happened.

Re. older guitars ? yes, for me it?s just the ?vibe? of owning an instrument with character that looks & feels old. I don?t think old guitars really sound better, although many people swear they do (if it comes to that, I don't believe veneer makes any tone difference compared to solid top either).

Personally I think an older guitar is more individual, & more interesting as a result. If you buy a new guitar then it?s really just exactly the same as all the other new guitars in the shop, anyone can have one like that straight off the shelf. But as a guitar gets older it takes on a more unique individuality. Of course a 20 year old Tokai was not hand-made, it was largely machine made, but nevertheless the wood & it?s selection, machining procedures, QC & overall spec. etc. will still be slightly different to brand new Tokai today. Resale value of vintage instruments may also be a factor for many (especially Gibson owners), but that?s dangerous speculation. It?s a matter of personal opinion & just my 2-cents :-? .

Ian.

Hi Tubedog ? OK, thanks for the clear explanation :-? . Yes, I?m aware that the position of tail-piece is supposed to be slightly different, I think we discussed it here in a couple of previous threads. I wasn?t casting doubt on it as a fact, just that as I said .. I think it?s tricky for a newcomer to spot, or as you put it ?subtle difference?. One note of caution though ? if you look on the LPF you can find lots of discussion about incorrectly positioned bridge & tailpiece ? so I think it may be dangerous to identify a genuine 320 on the basis that studs are always precisely positioned ? just my natural caution lol :lol: .

Supernout ? thanks for clarification on LS200 (I posted the above before seeing your reply ? crossed in the ether, again!). Re. preference for modern 320 over old LS80 or whatever ? I just like old guitars, full stop lol! But seriously, for $1700 you can easily buy a one year old mint Gibson Historic R7 GT, so $3000 on LS320 looks a bit steep to me. Chances of finding a good early original LS200 are pretty slim I think, no?

But main thing is ? I think Kaloosey now has a pretty full & detailed answer to his 320 question :-? .

Ian.

Quoting Ian: "I think Kaloosey now has a pretty full & detailed answer to his 320 question".

Definitely! Thanks to all of you who contributed. Now it?s time for me to look for an affordable LS.

Kaloosey

Tubedog ? I apologize. You are quite right, I?m wrong. I didn?t have any pics of LS320, but I looked through BOTB & as you say, the rear edge of the TP is always positioned on a line bisecting the vol. knobs. Whereas, on later LP?s the TP is clearly in direct line with the upper vol. knob (except on 68 & Historics).

In my defence (not much defence lol) - the position of the TP does vary a little, and the TP itself also varies in shape (due to imprecise moulding/casting?). Which means the angle between TP & controls does vary quite a lot (which is what I was thinking of), however, as you correctly say ? on original bursts the alignment always bisects the control knobs :-? .

All the best,

Ian.