Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com Forum Index
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Are there mistakes in the LoveRock Serial Numbers???
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com Forum Index -> Vintage (Older than 1985)
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Loudmouse
Guitar God


Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 168
Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info. I removed a tuner and it does have the smaller pin and additional hole, just like you said it would. I was also thinking that the two circles on the neck joint were a way of attaching the neck and the "heel fillet" to the body. Some sort of dowel running through the two neck pieces to join them. Did Greco do theirs that way?
_________________
I heard they threatened Tokai with a lawsuit, but they never got to Cort?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ian
Guitar God


Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 834
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Supernought, always nice to see your posts, because I know you?ve examined a lot of early Tokais in detail. Interesting theory re other Japanese makers contributing to Tokai .

If I recall correctly, something like this came up a year or two back on the Ibanez forum. Not sure I have the story straight, & no idea if it?s true anyway, but it was said that during the 1970?s few if any Japanese makers actually had any production facilities of their own. Instead they all rented different work areas within a single factory. It was suggested that parts & labour were freely exchanged between various brands.

Presumably Tokai themselves know exactly what happened, after all it?s only 25 years ago. Maybe we ought to ask them ? and while we?re at it, ask also about the ?x=y? numbers.

All the inked numbers I?ve seen appear to be from 1980-81 ? interesting if you?ve seen them as early as 79 (ie 900xxxx). I have a different theory of course lol !

Ian.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
supernout
Guitar God


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen a few '78 inked ones, especially bs models, but never a '79. Different theory??? (a.k.a. first korean attempt theory?)

Unfortunately I don't know anything about Greco guitars. But the '80 Tokai Love Rock I owned looked absolutely the same regarding neck/body joint & the two neckjoint circles.
_________________
If you can't solve a problem...you are the problem. (shadocs rule!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ian
Guitar God


Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 834
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh ? yes your post did say ?78? ? sorry I often tend to gloss over specific details such as ?precise? dates lol.

But 78 is very early (anyone ever seen a 77 LS?), so can I just be clear; you mean you?ve had at least one with inked number 800xxxx? Two, three, more than that?

Interesting that you also had an 80 Love Rock with that neck joint. But I don't think any single theory has yet become deffinite fact. Oh, ... the Korean theory was nothing to do with me by the way .

Ian.



Ian.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
supernout
Guitar God


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ian wrote:

But 78 is very early (anyone ever seen a 77 LS?), so can I just be clear; you mean you’ve had at least one with inked number 800xxxx? Two, three, more than that?


twenty-5, to be exact

Being serious again, I still own one and I remember seeing two or three '78 inkies on Yahoo jp. LS were officially introduced back in '78 so I would only expect any LS prototypes or, of course strat & tellies prior to that year.
_________________
If you can't solve a problem...you are the problem. (shadocs rule!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ochay
Guitar God


Joined: 24 Sep 2002
Posts: 713
Location: So. Cal.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

funny, my 1989 love rock has the same kind of tuners-

beveled tops. small tuner pin and the additional hole between the two tuner drillholes. Soooo does that make this Stamped Ser# Tokai Love Rock an 1980 also????

IT'S A GRECO DUDE !!!

CLONE TOKAI's IT IS !!!
_________________
Guitar Farmer !
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
supernout
Guitar God


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ochay wrote:
CLONE TOKAI's IT IS !!!


Hi Mike,

If I could clone a Mercedes, I would not waste my time in cloning a Volkswagen. Why are you so superduper sure about the cloning thing? Did you fake it back then?

You often could not even tell an indian from a brazilian fretboard in the past, so why should I believe that your LR is from ’89?



BTW I'm not Lebowski.
_________________
If you can't solve a problem...you are the problem. (shadocs rule!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ian
Guitar God


Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 834
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether inked or impressed, the Tokai serial numbers are always the same style, ie seven digits on reverse of headstock (copying Gibson). But what about Greco, did they use the exact same seven digit style, or not?

Supernout ? can you explain what you mean when you say the ?carve? of the body is different from a typical Tokai? What is different about the carve?

Ian.
Ps:- I?m no good at riddles lol !
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
supernout
Guitar God


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ian,

Me no good at riddles either!

So where did I said that? I just don't remember having used that term. But the pix are probably gonna answer the riddle




Note the neck cavity and especially the control cavity, impossible to fit the standard Tokai Printed Circuit Board. The Tokai control cavity curves are flattened around the screw areas. I don't think that this body has been tooled at the Tokai plant.
_________________
If you can't solve a problem...you are the problem. (shadocs rule!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ian
Guitar God


Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 834
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Supernout ? thanks for the explanation & the pics .

OK, first I should say that I haven?t seen inside any Grecos, & haven?t seen inside enough Tokais to be sure what the bare control cavity should look like. The few that I have seen also had the electronics in place, so personally I can't say what the bare cavity should look like.

But having said that ? until we learn anything different, I?m happy to accept your explanation/theory re. the bodies either being made by Greco (or similar maker?), or at any rate not made on the usual Tokai production line .


Ian.

Ps:- ha, ? my comment about riddles was simply to admit that I had not worked out what you meant by ?IAM... WTH is AFAIK??, unless it was just a direct translation, ... In A Meeting ? What The Heck ? is ? As Far As I Know .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ochay
Guitar God


Joined: 24 Sep 2002
Posts: 713
Location: So. Cal.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


_________________
Guitar Farmer !


Last edited by ochay on Tue Oct 05, 2004 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ochay
Guitar God


Joined: 24 Sep 2002
Posts: 713
Location: So. Cal.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="supernout"]
ochay wrote:
CLONE TOKAI's IT IS !!!


If I could clone a Mercedes, I would not waste my time in cloning a Volkswagen. Why are you so superduper sure about the cloning thing? Did you fake it back then?


did you see what that Reborn went for yesterday $1200- I just sold a OLD for that same price-theres your answer-
What I'm thinking(Guessing) these Clones were made reciently??
Maybe?? Maybe not-Not real tokai ??? Give me a break !!


VERY profitable to CLONE an early eighties TOKAI and claim it (or have others try and rationalize) it was made in another factory??????

Gimme 2 breaks

Thats all I have to say about that !!! Buyers beware !!!!
_________________
Guitar Farmer !


Last edited by ochay on Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ian
Guitar God


Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 834
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, ? they could be converted Greco, and fake Reborn might make it worthwhile. But so far most inked numbers have appeared on Love Rocks ? not much price difference to Greco .

Ian.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Loudmouse
Guitar God


Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 168
Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And why go to all that trouble to clone an LS-50, the bottom of the Tokai line. I don't understand Ochay saying that because our Love Rocks have the same tuner configuration, mine is a Greco! Also, compared to Supernout's pictures, the pickup cavities are different on my "inky" and the control cavity does have the flat areas by the screw holes. http://home.earthlink.net/~glopresti/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
supernout
Guitar God


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mike,

please do me one favor. Shoot a front pic of the headstock, the lense 90 deg. to the surface, standard or better tele-lense, no wide-angle. It will answer the question, if it's a Tokai or Greco or any brand neck. I compared the neck of my Tokai hybrid of '80 or whatever and it was definitely a Tokai neck. Loudmouses' hybrid has a 100% Tokai neck as well. Why do I say this?

A Tokai Les Paul neck is recognizeable by its headstock, precisely the tuner line-up. All the Tokais I've had, no matter what model or year, have the same line-up. You can measure it very easily. The only exception is the 320, because it's completely handbuilt and different regarding body/neck construction. Even by headstock pix you can always recognize an almost square of the lower 4 tuners (E, A, h, e1). The tuner line-up is determined by a tooling machine that drills the 6 holes and apparently Tokai never changed those tooling machines. I don't know about Greco but their tuner line-up is different, it's close to the original Gibson line-up where all three tuner pairs usually spread upwards (see pic of Burny). It's recognizable as well by lots of pics on jp. auctions. So if you or anybody else own a Tokai Les Paul with a non Tokai tuner line-up that is not a 320, prove it by a pic of the headstock!

This is an example how to measure:



--------------------------------------------red-----yellow-----green-----blue

Burny Super Grade early '80---------41.5------43.0-------46.5-----83.0
LS-320 '99-------------------------------39.5------42.5-------45.5-----82.0
LS-50 '82--------------------------------42.5-------42.5-------44.5----83.0
LS-60 '01--------------------------------42.5-------42.5-------44.5----83.0

based on mm.


------------------


Hi Ian,

I totally agree w/u. So why didn't they clone Reborns? Besides that nobody in '89 knew the value of a reborn or 25y old Love Rock in 2004. During the eighties used Grecos and Loverocks weren't that different concerning their values. And wouldn't it have made more sense to clone or fake the high-end Tokai Lesters. I've only seen LS-50. And why didn't they impress the serials like Tokai did? That would have made it perfect, but they decided to ink a wrong serialisation scheme instead.

P.S: I hadn't been in a meeting. I think...I asked myself.
_________________
If you can't solve a problem...you are the problem. (shadocs rule!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com Forum Index -> Vintage (Older than 1985) All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 5 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group