1980 LS-200 - Yahoo JP

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wknight2 said:
I saw that LS200. If I wanted another great guitar to play, I would have bought it in a heartbeat.
Here are my thoughts:
I passed, because it had a lot more wear than the one I picked up previously, and the top to me appeared to be nothing special. The top on the one I picked up is special, I've not seen another like it in terms of color and flame.
Gibsons possibly are a safer bet for an investor (assuming 50s and some 60s instruments, but those are priced way over a LS200, and the price of a 59 has dropped by six figures compared to a few years ago), but there were also over 100 bids on the guitar I bought, significantly more than the one that just sold.
If I wanted to sell it tomorrow, I could get back what I paid or even more, because Gibsons are for sale every day, but LS200s, in A+ shape, with a special top, come up for sale maybe once a year. I am aware of LS200s that sold for much more than the one I picked up.
Gibson's list price on a Bloomfield Les Paul is around $14,000. I have a friend who bought one, and he loves it. For me, I'd rather have the 30 year old wood.
A new Les Paul Custom can be purchased somewhere around $3800. Next year, that guitar is worth around $2200 because it's used. A LS200 will be worth the same or more than it is today. So in my mind, that makes it a better investment than the Gibson.
In addition, loads of guitar players have Gibsons, not many have Tokais or other MIJ. It's sad; a lot of people are ignorant, or prejudiced, against MIJ guitars. This forum is a wonderful place, because people can learn about these great instruments, compare features and price, and make a more informed decision about what type of guitar is right for them.
A lot of us read other forums, and we see tons of people complaining about the quality of the big-name guitars. In my experience, I've rarely if ever seen anyone complain about the quality of a mid to high level MIJ. That alone is reason enough for me to prefer the MIJs.
Again, if I wanted a great guitar to play, I would have bought the LS200 that sold recently. As it is, I have too many guitars, and I've been trying, if possible, to just pick up instruments that are in terrific shape. They will always hold their value better.
At a typical guitar show, there are hundreds of guitars selling for $7000 to $30,000 and up, and there is always lots of buying and selling taking place. There is no shortage of people who will pay big $$ for a guitar, but most of them are picking them up as investments, hoping for a bigger rate of return on their money than a Bank CD at 3% will give them (historically, well chosen guitars have been on average over 10%). Plus, you can rock out on your guitar, you can't do that with a Bank CD!
A really cool high end MIJ is more than an investment: it's a chance to own some of the best guitars built, with 30 year old wood, that not everyone and their cousin plays on stage, and are generally available for less money than a new, name-brand guitar is.
Just my 2 cents...
Ed

Well, it is impossible to predict the market.
American vintage peaked around 2007 and early 2008 with crazy prices.
The recession has made it hard for people to spend 30k or more on an old Strat.
After all, people prefer roof over the head :D

The main difference between American and Japanese vintage is the size of the market. Both in demand and supply.
There are thousands of pre-CBS Strats but there are tens of thousands of potential buyers. "The real deal" will always be more attractive to the majority of both collectors and players.
With a LS200 I see a possible market of less than 10 people in the entire world but for a 59 FT there will be atleast a handfull potential buyers for each that comes out on the market.

My friend just sold a 59 PT for 250,000$ (sold the day after he announced it was for sale). I was recently offered over 100k$ for a 58 GT.
Of course, prices in Europe are a bit higher than in the US due to VAT.

Talking about player quality is a different story..Then it doesn't matter what it says on the headstock. But for a collector it is all about the value.
However, I also know people who has FTs, Broadcasters, etc just for the sake of having them.
 
Koubayashi said:
"The real deal" will always be more attractive to the majority of both collectors and players. .

Here's something to ponder:
Gibson is known for it's early quality instruments, such as the 59 Les Paul.

But, didn't Gibson sell the factory, tools, and people, that made those guitars, which became the Heritage Guitar company?

Couldn't one then argue that Heritage makes the "real deal" and Gibson makes clones, just like the MIJs?

:eek:
 
wknight2 said:
Koubayashi said:
"The real deal" will always be more attractive to the majority of both collectors and players. .

Here's something to ponder:
Gibson is known for it's early quality instruments, such as the 59 Les Paul.

But, didn't Gibson sell the factory, tools, and people, that made those guitars, which became the Heritage Guitar company?

Couldn't one then argue that Heritage makes the "real deal" and Gibson makes clones, just like the MIJs?

:eek:


LOL, I love that; I tried to tell a bunch on another forum that any Gibson Les Paul made after 1960 was just another copy & they all just about shizzed on themselves ........... they just could not accept that idea :lol: ........
 
MIJvintage said:
I love that; I tried to tell a bunch on another forum that any Gibson Les Paul made after 1960 was just another copy & they all just about shizzed on themselves ........... they just could not accept that idea :lol: ........

:lol: MIJ,please call them replicas,not copys. :wink:

Volker
 
wknight2 said:
Koubayashi said:
"The real deal" will always be more attractive to the majority of both collectors and players. .

Here's something to ponder:
Gibson is known for it's early quality instruments, such as the 59 Les Paul.

But, didn't Gibson sell the factory, tools, and people, that made those guitars, which became the Heritage Guitar company?

Couldn't one then argue that Heritage makes the "real deal" and Gibson makes clones, just like the MIJs?

:eek:

No, they own the design - created it first, but I see your point!
 
settebello said:
MIJvintage said:
I love that; I tried to tell a bunch on another forum that any Gibson Les Paul made after 1960 was just another copy & they all just about shizzed on themselves ........... they just could not accept that idea :lol: ........

:lol: MIJ,please call them replicas,not copys. :wink:

Volker

The Historics are replicas or reissues (hence the 'R' designation) but the other Gibson USA stuff, well that's what passes for a production Gibson LP these days. In the US only Gibson is legally allowed to make a replica LP. I get the idea of calling the modern Gibsons clones, but they own the name and trademark, so they can't technically be a clone...
 
Fender and Squier JV are just copies of real Fenders.
Fender japan and Fender Mexico are copies of Fender.

To say that a LP made after 60 is a replica or copy is silly.
Smells like trying to justify and hype Japanese "replicas".
And hyping is Japanese "replicas" is a "prominent character" on this forum :D

Gibson owns the rights to LP. They can make it where the hey they want and call it LP. Further, these days, when most stuff is made in China you should be happy that there is some people having jobs in your country.
 
who is hyping exactly? oh yea of the ''huge'' vintage MIJ collection...

no-one is hyping these guitars, when you compare the quality with modern gibsons its the gibsons that need the hype, I don't see any Japanese makers spending zillions on advertising their new LP every year with the same tired old ''improvements'' like chambering to reduce the weight of cheap wood, or offering some minor cosmetic change to make it ''more accurate'' thus justifying their overpricing.

the old Japanese guitars are simply better wood, better made and better sounding than most new gibsons.

the newer high end Japanese stuff ..ie tokai and navigator, are also better specced guitars than Gibsons..

and thats not ''hype'' its a fact..

and another thing, where do you get the ''10 people in the world interested in an LS-200'' statement from?? ...thats just a made up figure to justify your arguement, you MADE IT UP m8, again the FACT is that I know of at least 20 people looking for their perfect LS-200, and they are just the ones who have asked me for one, not ''in the entire world''..

also you state that ''for a collector its all about the value''

again this is simply not true, I collect Japanese guitars, a lot of them, and the value or the perceived value really has little impact on me, if I wanted to I could collect vintage US guitars, but I don't want to, personally I do not like that marketplace, now thats a true example of ''overhyping'' for sure.. $250000 for a guitar ..slightly ''hyped'' perhaps??
 
I think the confusion is between 'hype' and 'word getting around' two very different things. If everyone went around saying old Japanee guitars are rubbish then the prices would not have escalated the way they have, but the fact is they are great guitars, and don't need hyping.
 
JohnA said:
If everyone went around saying old Japanee guitars are rubbish then the prices would not have escalated the way they have

Old Japanese guitars are rubbish! Don't buy them. 8)

At least don't buy them until prices have dropped by half & I have a nice, early LR GT sitting on a stand in my living room..

:wink:

Mike
 
MIJvintage said:
LOL, I love that; I tried to tell a bunch on another forum that any Gibson Les Paul made after 1960 was just another copy & they all just about shizzed on themselves ........... they just could not accept that idea :lol: ........

Koubayashi said:
To say that a LP made after 60 is a replica or copy is silly.
Smells like trying to justify and hype Japanese "replicas".
And hyping is Japanese "replicas" is a "prominent character" on this forum :D


If one actually reads my statement it is a reference to Gibson, and Gibson alone :wink:
Didn?t mention another maker, or a maker/industry from another country.

How can that be hype? My statement has nothing to do with hype :)

It?s actually nothing more than a statement on a product that was made from some time in 1952 until/through most of 1960, before production ceased, and comparing that product to a later 'Gibson' branded product :wink:

Only comparing old apples to new apples; not apples to oranges :lol: ............
 
villager said:
who is hyping exactly? oh yea of the ''huge'' vintage MIJ collection...

no-one is hyping these guitars, when you compare the quality with modern gibsons its the gibsons that need the hype, I don't see any Japanese makers spending zillions on advertising their new LP every year with the same tired old ''improvements'' like chambering to reduce the weight of cheap wood, or offering some minor cosmetic change to make it ''more accurate'' thus justifying their overpricing.

the old Japanese guitars are simply better wood, better made and better sounding than most new gibsons.

the newer high end Japanese stuff ..ie tokai and navigator, are also better specced guitars than Gibsons..

and thats not ''hype'' its a fact..

and another thing, where do you get the ''10 people in the world interested in an LS-200'' statement from?? ...thats just a made up figure to justify your arguement, you MADE IT UP m8, again the FACT is that I know of at least 20 people looking for their perfect LS-200, and they are just the ones who have asked me for one, not ''in the entire world''..

also you state that ''for a collector its all about the value''

again this is simply not true, I collect Japanese guitars, a lot of them, and the value or the perceived value really has little impact on me, if I wanted to I could collect vintage US guitars, but I don't want to, personally I do not like that marketplace, now thats a true example of ''overhyping'' for sure.. $250000 for a guitar ..slightly ''hyped'' perhaps??


Nicely stated there villager :) ................
 
JohnA said:
I think the confusion is between 'hype' and 'word getting around' two very different things. If everyone went around saying old Japanee guitars are rubbish then the prices would not have escalated the way they have, but the fact is they are great guitars, and don't need hyping.

"They are great guitars..." yet there are several persons on this forum who, one minute have the best guitar ever, and the next minute that best guitar ever is quietly sold off. Just normal guitar comings and goings in the process of finding the right axe? Maybe, or maybe some have not lived up to expectations?

Given the fact that people are now expected to just throw down big money based solely on photos and seller descriptions, the feedback on the guitars is vital, and it forms a fair component of the price. This forum is pretty much the global hub for that feedback, and some of us would just like to be sure that all is as it seems, as there are many choices available for guitar players nowadays.
 
MIJvintage said:
MIJvintage said:
LOL, I love that; I tried to tell a bunch on another forum that any Gibson Les Paul made after 1960 was just another copy & they all just about shizzed on themselves ........... they just could not accept that idea :lol: ........

Koubayashi said:
To say that a LP made after 60 is a replica or copy is silly.
Smells like trying to justify and hype Japanese "replicas".
And hyping is Japanese "replicas" is a "prominent character" on this forum :D


If one actually reads my statement it is a reference to Gibson, and Gibson alone :wink:
Didn?t mention another maker, or a maker/industry from another country.

"...just another copy..." this automatically compares the usual LP clones to the current Gibson crop, what else was it intended to do? :wink:
 
JVsearch said:
JohnA said:
I think the confusion is between 'hype' and 'word getting around' two very different things. If everyone went around saying old Japanee guitars are rubbish then the prices would not have escalated the way they have, but the fact is they are great guitars, and don't need hyping.

"They are great guitars..." yet there are several persons on this forum who, one minute have the best guitar ever, and the next minute that best guitar ever is quietly sold off. Just normal guitar comings and goings in the process of finding the right axe? Maybe, or maybe some have not lived up to expectations?

Given the fact that people are now expected to just throw down big money based solely on photos and seller descriptions, the feedback on the guitars is vital, and it forms a fair component of the price. This forum is pretty much the global hub for that feedback, and some of us would just like to be sure that all is as it seems, as there are many choices available for guitar players nowadays.

I think a lot of the buying and selling is just the way things are today. When I was younger I bought a guitar from the local shop and kept it for ten years, now there are a million guitars for sale all over the world that I can spend my evening looking at on the Internet. This fuels desire for somthing 'better', and to fund the new purchase something has to go. I see this behavour with everything I'm interested in, cars, guitars, radio control models :eek: it's all just a facet of modern life that like everything else comes with its pros and cons.

Look at the sucess of ebay, it's just human nature to enjoy buying & selling :wink:
 
JVsearch said:
MIJvintage said:
MIJvintage said:
LOL, I love that; I tried to tell a bunch on another forum that any Gibson Les Paul made after 1960 was just another copy & they all just about shizzed on themselves ........... they just could not accept that idea :lol: ........

Koubayashi said:
To say that a LP made after 60 is a replica or copy is silly.
Smells like trying to justify and hype Japanese "replicas".
And hyping is Japanese "replicas" is a "prominent character" on this forum :D


If one actually reads my statement it is a reference to Gibson, and Gibson alone :wink:
Didn?t mention another maker, or a maker/industry from another country.

"...just another copy..." this automatically compares the usual LP clones to the current Gibson crop, what else was it intended to do? :wink:


What I consider a copy of a Les Paul & what someone else considers a copy of a Les Paul could easily be two different ideas.

I consider any post 1960 Gibson Les Paul to be a copy, even if branded as a Gibson, and made by Gibson.

I'm sure I'm in the minority with that veiw but that is my veiw, none the less.

If a R9 wasn't a copy, then it would be fetching $300K plus on the market :)
 
MIJvintage said:
I consider any post 1960 Gibson Les Paul to be a copy, even if branded as a Gibson, and made by Gibson.

Would you still think that if Gibson hadn't stopped production of the LP for 8 years and the model had continued unchanged? Surely then it would just be a case of an old LP and a new LP?

My own feeling is that Gibson stopped making the proper LP in 1960 and then started making them again in 1992/3.

What about a 54, 57, 62 or 63 new Strat - are they a copy of a 54, 57, 62 or 63 Strat? :)
 
villager said:
HYPE = publicize in an exaggerated and often misleading manner..

Many times there is a thinline between definitions.

Frankly, most people have no idea how a 59 FT feels and sounds like.
But yet their LP is just as or nearly as good :D

Important to add is that there are late 50s LPs that are **** as well.
 
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