Dating Cat's Eyes CE-400

Discussion for acoustic guitars from Tokai

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JohnA
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Post by JohnA » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:53 pm

Exactly how high is it? mm from top of 12th fret to bottom of the low E?

greco_burst
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Post by greco_burst » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:09 pm

edited
Last edited by greco_burst on Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

JohnA
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Post by JohnA » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:20 pm

4mm at the 12th on a Martin style guitar, especially a 25 year old one is pretty good, I would call 3mm at the 12th a low action on an acoustic. I would say any swelling is totally negligable, and the guitar could be playing like new for the cost of a decent set-up.

Sorry Dave and Mick, I seem to have opened up a hornets nest with all my 'belly swell' talk, I've seen Martin's with a 10mm 12th fret action caused by swelling, I really dont theink that's the case here.

greco_burst
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Post by greco_burst » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:29 pm

edited
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DaveWW
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Post by DaveWW » Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:45 pm

greco_burst wrote:
JohnA wrote:Exactly how high is it? mm from top of 12th fret to bottom of the low E?
It is the same as what Dave says 4mm at the 12th, but is 6mm at the 20th fret.

My Yamaha FG401 is 3.5mm at the 12th and 4mm at the 20th fret.

Both guitars have a Bridge height of 12.5mm

The action like I said is a bit high, but the problem is the height increase after 12th fret, waay too high.
Gecco_butt, the action wasn't like that when I sold it! I'm not entirely convinced it'as bad a it looks from those pic's even now. Very strange how a HUGE problem went unseen for 6 months.

greco_burst
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Post by greco_burst » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:21 pm

DaveWW wrote:
greco_burst wrote:
JohnA wrote:Exactly how high is it? mm from top of 12th fret to bottom of the low E?
It is the same as what Dave says 4mm at the 12th, but is 6mm at the 20th fret.

My Yamaha FG401 is 3.5mm at the 12th and 4mm at the 20th fret.

Both guitars have a Bridge height of 12.5mm

The action like I said is a bit high, but the problem is the height increase after 12th fret, waay too high.
Gecco_butt, the action wasn't like that when I sold it! I'm not entirely convinced it'as bad a it looks from those pic's even now. Very strange how a HUGE problem went unseen for 6 months.
The action and guitar is how it is when it arrived davewww.idiot.com
Last edited by greco_burst on Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

leadguitar_323
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Post by leadguitar_323 » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:09 pm

It looks like that guitar has had the strings either too tight {tuned sharp} or left with full tension and not played much. The humidity in Queensland summers is extreme and i have seen good acoustics turn to sh1t really quick here. My advice is when not being played, loosen the strings and put the guitar in its case, never leave for extended periods {especially in our humid temps} with the strings on or out of the case.....
After re reading this thread i think that for someone offering lots of advice to members Mick, that you really have a lot to learn about guitars in general.
Copy and pasting doesn't lead to good advice, playing, reading and dissecting guitars for over 30 years does.....


Mick
so many guitars....so little money...

leadguitar_323
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Post by leadguitar_323 » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:17 pm

Sorry Mick but i have been avoiding this for a while but
Your name calling to me just shows who you really are.
Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black..!! It may do you well to go back and reread all of your posts and the way you handled your original dispute.
Creditability goes a long way mate.... Oh ..trhere is a difference in the pics Dave posted and yours, the neck angle looks to have changed since you bought the guitar and humidity will definitely do that..



Mick
so many guitars....so little money...

greco_burst
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Post by greco_burst » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:53 pm

edited
Last edited by greco_burst on Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BlueThird
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Post by BlueThird » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:46 pm

As far as belly swell is concerned, I'd be astonished if any good steel string acoustic has a soundboard so flat that you can't rock a steel rule on it. The obvious fixes for that ??a really heavy top or laminated top or really heavy bracing ? would be worse than what they tried to prevent.

Certainly neither of mine have a perfectly flat top, but given that they've both got an action of ~3mm at the 12th and ~4mm at the 20th, I can't see that I've got anything to worry about. It's probably worth noting that the older of the two is a 1984 Sigma with so many similarities to the CE400 shown above that it's uncanny. Bracing would be pretty much identical to that in a Martin, too. Also worth noting that it survived over a decade in the UK, a few summers in Sydney (nearly as humid as QLD) and another decade in Adelaide (where it's seriously dry) without any mishap.

It stays in its case when not being played, of course, and lives in the coolest, most temperature-stable part of the house ? Mick's advice a couple of posts above should go without saying, though I've never really bothered to de-tension the Sigma.

Incidentally, Grecoburst, if you haven't already, the other thing that's worth looking at in all of this is the neck relief. Too much of that would obviously contribute to a high action.

greco_burst
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Post by greco_burst » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:10 pm

edited
Last edited by greco_burst on Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BlueThird
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Post by BlueThird » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:36 pm

Shouldn't be any need to mention it specifically. If you're taking it in for a general setup that will be one of the first things they look at. If you want to check it yourself, put a capo on the first fret, hold the low E down at the 14th and test it at the eighth. Typically you want it to be something like 0.3mm. The accurate way to check for that is with automotive feeler gauges; the rough and ready way is to grab your thinnest plectrum and run it between the fret and string. Assuming the plectrum is something like 0.5mm/.02", the string will move a fair bit. If it doesn't move, the neck relief is likely to be a factor in the high action you've got.

By the sounds of it though, it's probably more than just the relief and you're going to need some work done at the bridge ??in which case I'd leave any truss rod adjustments to Tyms.

leadguitar_323
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Post by leadguitar_323 » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:40 pm

I am also aware about humidity issues as well, particularly further north in Queensland such as Cairns, is a major problem, but here in the sub tropics in Brisbane it is really not as bad.
Thats rubbish, the humidity here today is in the low 90's which is very high and we often have very similar humidity to the far north, the only difference is that we get a reprieve in the cooler months which now are getting hotter as well. Humidity is a killer of acoustics as i have already said and so is letting them sit for months without loosening the tension of the strings. Any humidity over 50 percent will eventually do damage.
I pulled my sons old computer table apart last week and put 3 pieces of board from it outside for 2 days under cover and they have already warped from the humidity.
Some members here have added their pointless views
Pointless to you maybe...These are based on what you have done in the past....nothing more nothing less.


I have a mate that had some work done at Tyms and i then had to set it up properly for him as the work was less than satisfactory, i can tell you that there are much better repairers around. Go to any reputable guitar store and they will point you in the right direction.

Mick
so many guitars....so little money...

greco_burst
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Post by greco_burst » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:49 am

edited
Last edited by greco_burst on Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JohnA
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Post by JohnA » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:59 am

If Leadguitar123 says Tyms is not the best place to take it, then why take it there? I would also say that if simple stuff like checking the relief on the neck require you to take the guitar in to a repair shop, then perhaps you are not really qualified to make a judgement on the state of the guitar.

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