Are there mistakes in the LoveRock Serial Numbers???

Hi Ochay ? interesting part here is that ?Wild Bill? now has some very clear photos of a Reborn with inked number. I hope he'll post them here, because they should lead to a clearer understanding of this :-? . Maybe not the final word, but an interesting discovery :-? .

Ian.

OK, well I waited a week, but seems like Wild Bill has lost interest in showing photos of his Reborn with inked S/N . Shame because it does shed important light on the question of dates for those guitars.

Bill did email me with very clear close-up photos, & I could post them here, but I guess they?re really still his property? However, I suppose the following description is in order:-

Overall Appearance ? the guitar is an early LS60 Reborn with sunburst finish. It?s in good condition, but close-up photos show the expected tarnish/grime/wear consistent with age. More specifically ?

Decals ? headstock decals appear absolutely correct ? standard Tokai MOP inlaid logo & gold-screened ?Les Paul Reborn? decal ? all with correct placement & size etc. I compared this closely to other Reborns & Love Rocks of known vintage, and it looks fine.

Tuners ? the headstock has double-ring Gotoh tuners (stamped "Tokai" in single line) which appear to be original to the guitar ? photos show no extra holes & no extra shadows - so no sign of ever being changed.

Serial Number ? the number is 800xxxx & is inked in black on the rear of the headstock (in normal position - the "8" is a little smudged). According to the Registry that number corresponds to 1978, however, AFAIK the double-ring tuners are only typical for 1980 to early 81, and most Reborns are from 79 or 80 (AFAIK 1978 was mostly the elusive ?Les Paul Model?). So I wonder if the inked 800xxxx actually indicates 1980, in which case the 1980 S/N?s are more complex than we previously thought.

60-Impressed Fretboard ? the end of the Fretboard is impressed ?60?, which is invariably taken as a sure sign of authenticity. Only slight question mark here is that the number is not cleanly impressed, so it?s just about arguable that it could have been added by someone. The two-piece plain-sawn centre-matched top is exactly as it should be for an early LS60.

In summary ? the guitar appears completely genuine & appears to confirm that the inked numbers are indeed from the early period, circa 1978-1980 (unless Tokai re-issued their own re-issues) :-? .

Ian.

Another Reborn with an inked serial number?!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=38086&item=3741716993&rd=1

I looked at that, but couldn?t make out if it?s inked or not? Not sure if that case is old or new? Just to confuse things ? some eBay sellers highlight the impressed number with black felt-tip pen, ie so it shows clearly in photos :-? .

Ian.

Hi,

Ive been looking through the tokai registry for a year now as to what my model of tokai love rock is. I bought the guitar second hand when i was in UK 3 years ago(moved back to malaysia), after seeing pictures of loudmouse's guitar i was convinced i had the same thing.. so it cant be some weird guitar i paid 250 pounds for.. but my serial number is different..and i got a seymour duncan in the bridge! ill try to get some pics.. IF ANYBODY will help me out there? :lol:

Hi Herman ? photos are always helpful, but it may be enough if you just describe the guitar, eg the serial number (inked or impressed?) :-? .

Ian.

This is a great conversation.

Ian, As I'm re-working the main site I'll include your findings in the serial number sections.

Where are you people finding Tokai's for $250?

Ned

Hi Ned, thanks for the words of encouragement.

It does seem there is now clear evidence that inked numbers were used on early LS models c.1980, and personally I don?t know what evidence there ever was to the contrary. Still I remain cautions about such things, and I?d like to see a few more examples before saying anything is certain.

Interesting perhaps that Gibson themselves used inked numbers on the Les Paul Classic re-issued from c.1990 ? that guitar is a copy of the original 1960 Les Paul, but I don?t know if the originals had inked numbers in 1960?

Ian.

hi,

well ive just gotten round to taking pics of the guitar but dont know where to put them for any of you to see. but i think the serial number is 2010834. its stamped. the tuners say deluxe on them with a single ring. the bindings have aged till yellowish. so i think its gotta be old..
the neck pickup is yellowish PAF gotoh, but the bridge is a seymour duncan. I think its an invader puckup (hex pole pieces). in the neck pickup cavity it says CS -71. apart from that its got some scratches and cracks in the finish. i think the neck has a slight bow in it! how can i be sure? frets are really worn (need to get new ones.. but afraid the repair guy might screw up the aged binding, looks really cool!!!! :x). and its also got the PCB in the control cavity.

hope that will be enough description to help.. Thanks!!

To answer Ian's question, I do believe that original 1960 Les Pauls had inked-on serial numbers. According to this site (which seems to match my memory) Gibson began imprinting serial numbers in 1961:

http://www.intersilo.com/gibson.asp

Hi Herman ? well first I?ve never posted any photos, so you?ll have to email Ned for info. on that (must get that sorted myself lol). But,? serial 201xxxx implies 1982, the Deluxe stamped tuners are correct, ditto the Gotoh PAF, but the SD pup is presumably a replacement. ?CS? stands for Cherry Sunburst, but I don?t know what the ?71? is. PCB in control cavity should mean it?s LS50 or LS60 (LS80 & above had discrete caps c.1980 - but afaik there?s no quality difference between pcb vs. discrete).

To check if neck is straight - rest but-end of the body on your feet (ie with headstock upwards) & look/sight down the edge of the neck/Fretboard ? try that from all angles along both edges of the Fretboard. If neck bows slightly downwards then that may be deliberate attempt to stop fret buzz (ie added ?Relief?), but in any case it?s probably easy to straighten via. the truss rod, & if it needs a re-fret then you need a good Tech anyway ? if you were still in London I?d recommend Charlie Chandler, but in Malaysia?? Re-fret shouldn?t interfere with the binding in any way, unless binding is actually over the fret ends, in which case it?s more likely to be LS200 than LS60 lol .

Ian.

Hi LawsuitFan ? many thanks for the info :-?. Yep I did a little more checking on the Les Paul Forum and it seems ALL Gibson Les Paul?s had inked numbers up until late-1960 or early 61.

From around 1980-82, Gibson themselves were experimenting with limited numbers of various vintage LP re-issues, eg ?Heritage-80? (in 3 versions), ?Guitar Trader Model? (47 made), ?Leo? (c.800 made), ?Jimmy Wallace Model?, ?KM Standard 82? etc. I don?t know if any of these used inked numbers or whether Tokai took notice of this circa. 1980, but I?ll do some more checking (all info. from Mike Slubowski at LPF) :-? .

Ian.

Hi Ian,

As Mike may have mentioned, there was a recent article in Vintage Guitar Magazine about the guitars (Jimmy Wallace, KM, Leo, etc..) you mentioned. Please let me know if I can help with any additional research on the Gibson end. (I wonder if I still have that issue at home? House cleaning is dangerous business!)

Since you mention neck cavity text, are you aware of any resources posted for deciphering these markings? As near as I can tell, my '79 LS-100 bears the following:

100 0S
10 26

And my final question of the day: I have in my possession a pair of chrome-plated humbuckers reputedly out of a vintage Tokai LS. The only markings on them are a number inked on the bottom: 15227. Does this ring any bells with anyone?

hi ian!!

THANKS for the information! .

:lol:

Loudmouse said:

Photos of my Love Rock
http://home.earthlink.net/~glopresti
Copy and paste into address bar if it doesn't link direct. Last photo is of the original pickups, now on a different guitar.

Click to expand...

:lol:

I new it !! That's not even a real Love Rock, Says Tokai though ! This is a Clone Tokai-Look at the neck joint(Exactly like a Greco) and the Inked Ser number doesn't jive. Comming up next I'd bet is a Clone Tokai Reborn.
Thought u ought to know !!
Mike

Send the pics to me ned at tokairegistry.com and I can post them in the pic portion of the main site.

Ned

A clone of a clone. For those of us too "thrifty" to buy a real Tokai. Why buy the original when some really good copies are being made?

I suppose you can just get you an Epiphone ??? Real pretty !! :lol:

Glad I sold it and got my $50 bucks back!

Loudmouses’ axe is from 1980. Absolutely no doubt about it. Just take a look at the tuners . No flat but beveled tops. Take one off. You can prove the early '80 dating by the small tuner pin and the additional hole between the two tuner drillholes.




A theory :

Love Rocks with inked serials were built somewhere else IMO. Probably Tokai haven’t had enough bodies or some other companies haven’t had enough necks. The necks are definitely Tokai originals but the bodies are tooled completely different. So I wouldn’t call these guitars Tokai clones but Tokai hybrids. Tokai could have sent the necks and some of the hardware to another factory that completed the guitar building process.
Some of those hybrids came with the Tokai-style combination of original lightweight tailpiece & late ‘50 abr-1 bridge w/o retainer wire, others with heavyweight tailpiece & more ordinary bridges. Some had PCB’s and others only pots and caps because the PCB’s simply didn’t fit into the control cavities. Hex screw type Gotoh Pu’s were used very often.
Since the serialisation is the last step of the manufacturing process it makes sense to me that those which completed the guitar would serialize it.
I have even seen Burny necks on Tokai bodies manufactured during that time. So it seems that the three companies Tokai, Greco and Burny/Fernandes “helped” each other to some certain extend.

Some of the early changes:

• 1978 : very first models had two or even three piece necks, later 1p – inked stamped serials – “les paul” (thick) reborn logo – cremish double ring tuners – TRC type 1 – thick Tokai logo

• 1979 : impressed serials – “les paul” (thin) reborn logo – greenish double ring tuners

• 1980 : reborn old logo / love rock logo - greenish single ring tuners – TRC type 2

• 1981 : thinner Tokai logo