Are there mistakes in the LoveRock Serial Numbers???

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Hi Peter,

Were you expressing an opinion, or is it a fact about the 01 numbers :-? ?

Ian.
 
Hi Ian
I have spent the best part of the last 2 years archeiving the serial numbers of Tokai LS guitars and I have not come across any built in the 70's or 80's that ever started with 01 being the first 2 numbers so I guess its fact....again there were no Love Rock models in 1980 - they were Reborn Old

regards
Peter Mac
 
Hi Peter ?

Sounds like your archive will be very useful, if you want to share it :-? .

OK, I?m not knocking anything, & definitely NOT looking for an argument on this,?.but what you describe is clearly your opinion, based on what you?ve seen . It?s clearly not a definite fact.

I don?t say that you?re wrong about 01 numbers, truly. Because after all it?s the same Registry attribution that we all used before Looknow queried it. But I think there is now room for some doubt.

I?ve never seen either of these guitars, not even a picture lol :D . Looknow gave no description of his guitar, and Loudmouse only mentioned double ring tuners. But those tuners have been discussed here several times, and AFAIK nobody has seen them as original equip?t after c.1981. In general, if a guitar has 1980-81 fittings, & if those fittings are original to the guitar, then the guitar is 1980-81 by definition (regardless of the serial number), isn?t it?

Ian.
 
Hi Guys,
I'll post some pictures this weekend and see if that will help. I'm 99% sure it's a 2001 model, But, I could be wrong, I've made mistakes before. I once payed top dollar for a crappy guitar because it said Gib$on on the headstock.
 
Hi Loudmouse ? thanks, yep a photo might help, although in your case it seems you?re pretty sure it?s 2001 regardless of the tuners. Hope we can keep this all polite & constructive, lol :D ? hope I haven?t upset Peter, I know he?s a God around these parts :( .

Unfortunately you?re not the only person to buy a crappy guitar with Gibson on the headstock lol :lol: . Ditto Fenders. A few people have ?rubbished? Tokai too ? nothings perfect,....not even my pronouncements on dates & serial numbers lol :-? .

All the best guys,

Ian.
ps:- be interesting if Looknow is still watching ? he bought his guitar as ?definitely? 80 or 81..... be interesting to see a photo of that.
 
Photos of my Love Rock
sorry
Copy and paste into address bar if it doesn't link direct. Last photo is of the original pickups, now on a different guitar.
 
Hi Loudmouse ? interesting pics :) . But before making any comment on those, .... tell me, you said ?I?m 99% sure it?s 2001? ? so leaving aside all the comments in this thread; why do you think it?s 2001? Did you buy it as 2001?

Ian.
 
Hi Ian, The Japanese seller originally told me it was a 1981 with a 101xxxx serial number. When it arrived I complained and he offered to refund part of the price, saying he had "accidently" shipped the wrong one.(although the picture he sent matched the guitar I got). I thought it was a 2001 because of the serial number, the shape of the truss rod cover, the funky neck joint with the two holes, and the "GOTO" pickups. Any information would be appreciated.
 
Heres the rub on the whole serial number issue. It's all opinion as we will never really know the exact facts. However, I believe as a group we have definately come along way in cracking the code.

Loudmouse, can't access your site from work but I'll check when I get home and have a peak.

To change the subject...
We've got a consultant in from Coventry (UK) who has a '62 SG - I'm gonna try and convert him while he's here. Showed me a picture of his basement where he has a drum kit called Flatts. The drums are only 1-4 inches thick - very cool.

Ned
 
GOTO pups are not coming on 2.000's LS-70 I think.Weren't they from early 80's?
 
Hi Loudmouse. OK, well first a disclaimer ? there are many others here with more knowledge than I have about these guitars, so maybe they?d like to chip in? Second, an apology ? this a very loooonnnnggg reply ?

1.Serial Number ? we discussed this above & it remains the main point of contention. Supernout made a cryptic comment about the inked S/N?s, he explains it here http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2788&highlight=inked See also this thread re. early Reborn with no number at all ? http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1213&highlight=stamped


2.Double Ring Tuners ? to repeat, AFAIK those tuners were not used after 81. If that?s right, and if the tuners are original to your guitar, then the guitar is 80/81 for certain. Supernout once mentioned Tokai re-issues from 2001, but I don?t know if that could explain guitars like yours? Maybe someone else would care to comment on that?

3.Circuit Board in Control Cavity ? this is always seen on early LS50/60 Reborn & early Love Rock (LS80 & upwards got discrete caps). However, I?ve no idea when, or if, Tokai ever stopped using the board ? maybe they still use it on some models today? The cap may give a clue ... maybe someone could id a date for that?

3. Pickups ? Tokai used Gotoh right from the start, from 1978 to present day (though a few higher models had Duncan?s or DiMarizio?s, & current LS320 has SD Seth Lover?s). I?d never noticed any pups with Hex Key adjustment, but see these two threads from Dana re. ?original 1981" LS50 Goldtop with hex adjusters http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2416&highlight=pole and
http://www.backyardbullet.com/GT.html .

Note also the very recent thread from Japscot, who describes his Love Rock as having hex poles (81 Serial ie S/N=101xxxx). Maybe the Hex adjusters were common at a particular date ? someone here must surely know about those?

4. Truss Rod Cover ? photo shows typical MIJ ?bell-shaped? truss cover, used from very first Les Paul Models of 1977-78 up to present day (different cover on MIK). Exactly same cover on my 82 Love Rock.

5. Pickup Cavity ? I haven?t seen those holes before, but I haven?t seen inside enough Tokais to know if it was done a certain dates (early or late). Anyone?

6. General Appearance ? Old guitars always show signs of age, even if they?ve spent most of their life in the case. Metal parts tarnish, plastic parts discolour, finish may become dull etc. So in most cases it?s easy to tell a 3 year old from a 20 year old. The signs are always there, & in many ways this is truly the best guide (regardless of S/N or fittings), however, some guitars do remain in deceptively fine condition despite the passing of decades, so it does need an experienced eye.

7. Maple Top - OK, here?s a crazy sounding comment?.your top appears to be 3-piece unmatched plain-grain, & looks to me very similar to tops on LS50 Reborn & Reborn Old from 1979-80. Although these tops are unmatched & without flamed stripes, the grain does have an attractive swirled pattern which is often quite prominent & quite characteristic. Of course I?m not saying your guitar is a re-badged Reborn, but the top may just be a clue to use of the same wood at a similar early date.


In summary ? none of this is conclusive. And as we?ve said here many times, apart from the S/N there?s often very little to distinguish the date or model of a Tokai Les Paul (unless it has a sticker, or model/date id in pup cavity ? or unless it has early Reborn decal). But, leaving the S/N out of the equation, & apart from my lack of knowledge over Hex-key poles, I?d have to say your guitar looks to me just like a straightforward early 1980-81 Love Rock LS50.

Ian.
 
Ian, Wow, Thanks for the reply. You sure gave me a lot of information and a lot to think about. I really liked your comments about telling the age by the general appearance of a guitar. Mine has just enough tarnish and discoloration to make me think it's an older one, but, who knows. All I know is she's a keeper, even if she did lie about her age.
 
Ha,.... it's like the ?Butler Report?...nobody lied, they just got "confused" lol :lol: (topical UK politics) - lovely guitar, of course you want to keep her 8) .

All the best,

Ian.
 
I just bought two Reborns from Ken (seikosuru on eBay). The LS50 has a serial number 000### stamped in ink, and I'm convinced it is a 1980, as Ken said it was. The LS60 has a number of 800####, and I think it is a 1978, though I believe Ken thought it was also an '80. I bought that one off his website. Hope I didn't mix up the serial numbers. Both guitars are in the shop getting a thorough inspection and setup, so I can't double check. It should be noted that I had to ask him if both guitars had one-piece mahogany bodies. He had to look, so I'm not sure if he's a Tokai expert. But, then, who is? They set me back $1760 with shipping, but I feel they were a good investment. It should be noted that I've only been "playing" for seven months, though I now own seven guitars. I also have an '83 LS50 Love Rock I bought from Ken. The difference in the quality of construction of my Tokais versus my '96 MIJ Fender '54 re-issue Strat, '03 Nashville Deluxe Tele is astounding. I can feel much more resonance through the neck on the Tokais, and now I feel like I'm driving a Panzer instead of a Sherman tank. I like my new Burny ES-335 clone, and I'm a fan of a '79 MIJ Mansfield SG clone, but the Fenders will both be sold. I'm hoping people away from this site will start "drinking the Kool-Aid" and discover what we Robert Fripp, Billy Gibbons and some others already know. With any luck, these guitars will skyrocket in value so I can tell the wife I don't need a 401K retirement account, just a large collection of insured vintage Tokais. See where Gibson is AGAIN suing Tokai and PRS (June '04). Hope it generates even more demand for our Tokais. Any comments on my serial numbers would be welcome. Glad I found the 10-pound sound before these meanies go for $5K apiece. Thanks, Bill
 
Hi Bill, do be careful about guitars as an investment. Collectors markets are fickle. They can change very quickly.

As you see from this thread, the inked numbers are a matter of debate. But .... yes, 800xxxx should indicate 1978 with decal ?Les Paul Reborn?, and 000xxxx should indicate 1980 with decal saying ?Reborn Old? - does yours say ?Old??.

Any chance of a photo of the 1980? Should be interesting, because an inked number with Reborn decal (or Reborn Old) either means the inked numbers are genuinely from 1980 or else somebody has faked your Reborn decal :eek: (unless Tokai re-issued their own copies! :eek: :eek: ).

Ian.
 
Ian: I have a long shot photo of my two Reborns and '83 Love Rock. I won't be able to get headstock or 22nd fret stamp photos to you until my Reborns are back from the luthier. My e-mail address is [email protected] if you'd like to send me your e-mail address so I can forward the photo I have. Thanks for responding. Bill
 
Hi Bill ? thanks for the offer of photos, but no hurry. The 1980 Reborn is of particular interest - front & back shots of the headstock would be great :-? .

All the best,

Ian.
 
Hi Bill - many thanks for emailing the photos to me. Any chance of showing them here on the Forum? I think they'd prove interesting & shed light on the issue of inked numbers :-? .

Ian.
 
I'm tickeled pink Peter Mac-put his foot down on the stamped serial numbered Love rocks that have been turing up on eBay-I actually bought one and it was sweet-I've been collecting Toks since 99 and have never seen a stamped ser number till the Japanese folks started selling on eBay. Just a quick note about LS-120's that I have owned/bought/sold from 1980 up to 1981-the 7 LS 120's that I have are all solid flamed maple tops- I'm not sure who's saying the 120's may have veneer flame tops-again I'm from the show me state-show me if I'm wrong. 8)
Regards,
Mike
 
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