I`ve just about had enough of this fakery.

Music stores and pawn shops where Tokai guitars have been spotted for sale. New or used.

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JVsearch
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Post by JVsearch » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:06 am

Koubayashi wrote:
leadguitar_323 wrote:Ian, i have spoken with Tokai on several occasions about these fakes and they never ever expressed any interest in doing anything about this problem. Tokai is a relatively small company and sells everything it makes and in fact, has trouble keeping up with demand for their products so i don't think this worries them that much. I read somewhere that the Tokai president was at a music expo somewhere and he approached the owner of one of the factories that made the fakes in Korea and told him he was unhappy with what was going on and apparently that is when the Korean fakes stopped being made.

Mick
Kind of sarcastic to ask someone to stop make copies of another copy :D
No, it's entirely fair to ask somebody not to put a Tokai logo on a product that is not a Tokai? :wink:
Totally biased towards Japanese made guitars.

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Post by Koubayashi » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:14 am

JVsearch wrote:
Koubayashi wrote:
leadguitar_323 wrote:Ian, i have spoken with Tokai on several occasions about these fakes and they never ever expressed any interest in doing anything about this problem. Tokai is a relatively small company and sells everything it makes and in fact, has trouble keeping up with demand for their products so i don't think this worries them that much. I read somewhere that the Tokai president was at a music expo somewhere and he approached the owner of one of the factories that made the fakes in Korea and told him he was unhappy with what was going on and apparently that is when the Korean fakes stopped being made.

Mick
Kind of sarcastic to ask someone to stop make copies of another copy :D
No, it's entirely fair to ask somebody not to put a Tokai logo on a product that is not a Tokai? :wink:
Then Tokai should consider to remove the tokai logo from a design that belongs to another company :wink:

stratman323

Post by stratman323 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:18 am

Koubayashi wrote:Then Tokai should consider to remove the tokai logo from a design that belongs to another company :wink:
Such as?

JVsearch
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Post by JVsearch » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:36 pm

Koubayashi wrote:
JVsearch wrote:
Koubayashi wrote:
leadguitar_323 wrote:Ian, i have spoken with Tokai on several occasions about these fakes and they never ever expressed any interest in doing anything about this problem. Tokai is a relatively small company and sells everything it makes and in fact, has trouble keeping up with demand for their products so i don't think this worries them that much. I read somewhere that the Tokai president was at a music expo somewhere and he approached the owner of one of the factories that made the fakes in Korea and told him he was unhappy with what was going on and apparently that is when the Korean fakes stopped being made.

Mick
Kind of sarcastic to ask someone to stop make copies of another copy :D
No, it's entirely fair to ask somebody not to put a Tokai logo on a product that is not a Tokai? :wink:
Then Tokai should consider to remove the tokai logo from a design that belongs to another company :wink:
Not necessary - the LP body is free for everybody, the only thing Tokai can't do is sell guitars with the open book headstock in the USA.

It's obvious to anyone but the very one-eyed, that Tokai took Gibson's design in its entirety. There would be no Reborns/Love Rocks without the Gibson Les Paul, it's a slam dunk. But the 50s were a simpler time and Gibson didn't think of a world wide trademark, so 25 years later when the trouble started with Tokai the law said it's too late to protect most of the design - you get your logo and that headstock, same for Fender.

Therefore Tokai is not legally obligated to do anything different to what they're doing today, that's the facts. It may seem unfair to Gibson, but the problem is that there's only so many shapes that can be made into a comfortable guitar, and to have one or two companies owning 90% of the basic shapes was rightly, not somewhere the court was going to go. I mean the waist and back of a LP looks like a small acoustic anyway, so maybe the designer of that should get paid as well?
Totally biased towards Japanese made guitars.

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Post by CliffsComicWorld » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:28 am

SO...... If Gibson holds a copy right to the open headstock in USA... Why is it that new Tokais are sold to the USA buyers and used ones are sold over and over?...... :o ......... Can you and I be taken to court?

Koubayashi
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Post by Koubayashi » Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:04 pm

CliffsComicWorld wrote:SO...... If Gibson holds a copy right to the open headstock in USA... Why is it that new Tokais are sold to the USA buyers and used ones are sold over and over?...... :o ......... Can you and I be taken to court?
My impression is that a private citizen can be taken to court and convicted of pretty much anything in the US :D
From a European perspective you guys live in a totalitarian society :D

Anyways....wasn't it Rickenbacker that gave sellers on E-bay troubles?
Darn Rickenbacker! I popped the hood on a newer 4003 last summer and instead of routings they had just drilled the cavities. Looked like sxxt :D

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Post by MIJvintage » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:33 pm

Koubayashi wrote:
CliffsComicWorld wrote:
Anyways....wasn't it Rickenbacker that gave sellers on E-bay troubles?
Darn Rickenbacker! I popped the hood on a newer 4003 last summer and instead of routings they had just drilled the cavities. Looked like sxxt :D

Yes, RIC has a contengent of web surfers that scan evilBay listings for RIC knock-offs ........... and when found they contact evilBay & tell them to delete the listings ........... RIC CEO John Hall will tell you the same thing ........... it's all about trade marked design aka 'trade dress' ..........
http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl ... ij_vintage

"Yeah, yeah. We're in the bureau of beer and fire and cigarettes. And maybe some chicks, too." - Beavis

JVsearch
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Post by JVsearch » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:12 pm

CliffsComicWorld wrote:SO...... If Gibson holds a copy right to the open headstock in USA... Why is it that new Tokais are sold to the USA buyers and used ones are sold over and over?...... :o ......... Can you and I be taken to court?
The new Tokais are "grey" imports and in theory you can be taken to court, but it will never happen with the current laws and levels of guitars coming in, there's no point. Although there was that downloading decision over there where a woman had to pay around $100K damages to a record company. This was an insane decision and hopefully was overturned.

If you personally are buying several new Tokais at a time, and re-selling them, that would look quite bad if it ever came to the crunch. But where we have an individual that purchases a Tokai from Japan for personal use, it is very very unlikely they would ever end up in court. Besides, whose fault is it really that this person was able to get the guitar? The Japanese Tokai dealer should not have sold it to him, but US laws mean squat in Japan. Ishibashi will not sell new Fender Japans to the US anymore, why do you think that is? Because Fender USA can probably make Fender Japan stop using Ishibashi as a dealer if they keep sending new guitars to the US, where Fender USA's strategy is to get everybody buying Mexican Fenders. Obviously this wouldn't work with Tokai, Gibson can't bring any pressure to bear directly.

Used market is barely relevant, but selling an open book headstock Tokai in the US on ebay for example, still infringes Gibson's legal rights. If Gibson took Rickenbacker's view then those listings would be pulled. In fact, if you contact Gibson about a fake they will get it pulled from ebay very fast.
Totally biased towards Japanese made guitars.

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Post by leadguitar_323 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:29 pm

JVsearch wrote:
Koubayashi wrote:
leadguitar_323 wrote:Ian, i have spoken with Tokai on several occasions about these fakes and they never ever expressed any interest in doing anything about this problem. Tokai is a relatively small company and sells everything it makes and in fact, has trouble keeping up with demand for their products so i don't think this worries them that much. I read somewhere that the Tokai president was at a music expo somewhere and he approached the owner of one of the factories that made the fakes in Korea and told him he was unhappy with what was going on and apparently that is when the Korean fakes stopped being made.

Mick
Kind of sarcastic to ask someone to stop make copies of another copy :D
No, it's entirely fair to ask somebody not to put a Tokai logo on a product that is not a Tokai? :wink:
+1 JV, nowhere on the Tokai's does it say Gibson and Tokai doesn't try and sell them as Gibson so i think your point is baseless and irrelevant.
If Tokai made them with Gibson on the headstock as the Chinese do then the sh1t would hit the fan.

Mick
so many guitars....so little money...

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