What defines "vintage" ?

Area for Tokai's older than 1985

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Marcus
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What defines "vintage" ?

Post by Marcus » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:33 pm

This forum is for posting re "Vintage (Older than 1985)". What is the basis for picking 1985 as "Vintage" ? Is it related to the age (e.g., over 20 years), in which case a new crop of "Vintage" will come into being every year (as they turn 20), or is it in some manner related to the pre-1985 Tokai manufacturing or whatever? Just curious . . . .

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Post by hans-j?rgen » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:45 am

I wondered about this, too, when I came here. Now I think this year has been taken by Ned and/or Ian because of the Fender copies which switched from exact headstock copies to the pointy export version after 1984.

I can't think of a similar property in the Love Rocks though, so I guess it's more of an "old wood feeling" in this case. Thinking back when Gibson Les Pauls became "vintage", it also was about 20-25 years after their production that this craze got started, maybe even earlier when Clapton bla bla.... And don't forget that those Norlin era Gibsons seem to be vintage now, too... ;)
ZZee ya, Hans-Jürgen
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INDIGO ROCKS "Down home rockin' blues. Tasty as strudel"

ned
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Post by ned » Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:37 am

The other reason is 1984 was about the time when Tokai pulled out of the US - thus the mythical lawsuit error is pre-1985ish.

Marcus
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Post by Marcus » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:49 am

The reason I asked is cuz I just got myself a wonderful 1985 Tokai Love Rock Custom (my first Tokai!), with the H shape inlay on the headstock (domestic Japan model, presumably), ebonised rosewood fretboard, etc. Will post some pix soon . . . .

Peter Mac
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Post by Peter Mac » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:36 pm

Hi guys,

other than the 20-25 year, Tokai started moving away from Classic guitars (Vintage Gibbo and Fenda replicas) in around 1986 and started to build original designs and/or layouts ( Talbo, SD-series, Graphite series etc)

If you compare the number of "Classic' models in the 1982 catalog to the 1984 catalog then the number in the 1989 catalog you will get my drift.
Pre-85 to me seems like a worthy year to those of us with really old Tokais.

regards
Peter Mac
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Post by hans-j?rgen » Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:10 am

Peter Mac wrote:If you compare the number of "Classic' models in the 1982 catalog to the 1984 catalog then the number in the 1989 catalog you will get my drift.
Pre-85 to me seems like a worthy year to those of us with really old Tokais.
Right, but it also implies that there would have been major changes in the MIJ production which feeds some web forum rumours about "much worse Love Rocks" in the 90s etc., while the only real change was the addition of Korean production around 1995.
ZZee ya, Hans-Jürgen
BLUEZZ BASTARDZZ "That lil' ol' ZZ Top cover band from Hamburg"
INDIGO ROCKS "Down home rockin' blues. Tasty as strudel"

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Post by Peter Mac » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:29 pm

Hi Hans-Jurgen,

To be honest i believe the quality of the wood used from 78 - 82 was a far better grade than from 83-on.
My 1984 TLS-80 had a Sepele Mahogany back and neck, Indian rosewood board and a veneer flame top.
My 1983 LS-200 had Honduras Mahogany body and neck, Brazilian rosewood board and solid bookmatched AAA flame top
A lot of the bodies I see from Reborns [ LS50-LS150] are not Sepele mahogany, they look closer to Brazilian mahogany.

I tend to believe the cost of materials by 1985 did affect what quality of woods could be bought to continue in business when you consider the changing events of the music industry in general at the time - players didn't want Gibbos and Fendas anymore - they wanted Jacksons and Ibanez to color match their haircuts and the guitar bodys went from being mahogany or alder :) to being Basswood or Poplar :( [ both soft,cheesy, cheap woods] Have a look at the 1989 catalog on the main site and look at what they are made of.....
Of course helping all this along was the stripping of rainforests :evil: and such so i don't think you can blame any-one in particular.

Food for thought anyway

regards
Peter Mac
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Post by hans-j?rgen » Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:28 am

OK, that a 1983 LS200 has better wood than a 1984 LS80 doesn't surprise me at all... :wink:

As the former Australian distributor (true?) you have seen much more Tokais than me, so my own experience is limited to thoroughly comparing my 1984 LS60 to the 1984 and 1985 LS60s of my friend (besides my 1981 LS120 of course and about a dozen others in German shops when they were still available). I couldn't make out any difference in the quality of wood or craftsmanship between the 1984 and 1985 models besides the normal differences in sound of course (all with 2-piece backs).

Later on Tokai came up with bolt-on necks for Love Rocks (don't remember if those were still manufactured in Japan or already in Korea, would have to check the catalogs again) and plywood bodies (those were MIK, as far as I remember). And it might have been one of those that I once played in a shop that really sucked, but I don't remember the exact year anymore. :-?
ZZee ya, Hans-Jürgen
BLUEZZ BASTARDZZ "That lil' ol' ZZ Top cover band from Hamburg"
INDIGO ROCKS "Down home rockin' blues. Tasty as strudel"

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Post by tokaiguy » Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:45 pm

:o Guitar Guru George Gruhn was asked this in a recent Vintage Guitar article. His response was that an instrument from the "Goden Age" of say an electric solid body would be one produced during the 50's thru 60's . With acoustic examples a different time line is used. 8) Bottom line what he said was that a Gibson RD might be 20 years old , that doesnt make it vintage ...just old! My own opinion is similar but I consider something like the first Ibanez replicas and the MIJ Replicas from the late 70's thru the 80's as a "Golden Age ". I don't really care...I can love them all! :wink: TG

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Post by tokaiguy » Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:52 pm

:o In August of 1974 I bought a Fender Strat hardtail sunburst with rosewood slab for $199 new in San Francisco, they had an Impeachment Special at Don Wiers Music City in honor of then President Nixon. Not a great gutiar but I have turned down $1800 for it. Maybe one day when I'm long gone somebody in my family will be able to send a kid to College on it!!! :lol: TG

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Post by 20 century boy » Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:57 pm

vintage is a term from wine study. A vintage wine describes a matured wine so I guess we can say the same for a guitare. A vintage guitar is "a more than 30 years old guitar". the term also refer, in guitars to a "golden age".
Read this about the term "vintage" if you don't already know that site:
http://www.provide.net/~cfh/vintage.html

I suppose that the golden era for japanese replicas is the 80's so that term should refer to this era for MIJ replicas.
Last edited by 20 century boy on Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
nankurunai sa!

sneakyjapan
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Post by sneakyjapan » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:29 pm

there are some very fine MIJs from the 70s too.

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Post by bigmike » Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:40 pm

RE VINTAGE WINE from the American Wine Institute's site:

BY LAW:

"a) General. Vintage wine is wine labeled with the year of harvest of the grapes and made in accordance with the standards prescribed in classes 1, 2, or 3 of ? 4.21. At least 95 percent of the wine must have been derived from grapes harvested in the labeled calendar year, and the wine must be labeled with an appellation of origin other than a country (which does not qualify for vintage labeling). The appellation shall be shown in direct conjunction with the designation required by ? 4.32(a)(2), in lettering substantially as conspicuous as that designation. In no event may the quantity of wine removed from the producing winery, under labels bearing a vintage date, exceed the volume of vintage wine produced in that winery during the year indicated by the vintage date."


Being of a culinary bent I know most people refer to Vintage Wines as 10 years or older. American Classic Vintage Cars are defined as 25 years or older. I tend to agree with George Gruhn's definition. To me the majority of great Vintage Gutiars stopped coming out in the late 60's, with only rare exceptions. Flatops in the 20's, 30's and early 40's. Archtops were at their peak in pre-WWII, hollowbodies in the 50's and early 60's and solid bodies in the 50's and 60's.


BigMike
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Post by Didsomeonesaylespaul? » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:57 am

Interesting information guys. I'm at a loss myself when it come to Vintage gear. I remember a time when the word meant what what it was describing. Today, on ebay and in pawn shop abroad, I see the term "Rare" and "Vintage" overused, just like the term "Old School" and it's very disturbing to me. I also remember a time when we laughed at the 3-bolt strat, and now it's the rage puilling in $1500- or more ! I saw an ebay auction the other day describing an amp as "Rare" only one of twentyfive hundred...........

I think people confuse the term "Vintage" with the term "Antique" I see it all the time.

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Post by tokaiguy » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:06 am

8) Amen! Just look at the classifieds in Vintage Guitar...Rare, what does that mean? I saw a Tokai auction recently that an 85' AST 62' was up for bid in the "Rare" Lake Placd Blue!!! Sometimes things are rare that were crap when they came out and failed in the market place. Lets agree that mint, 9 of 10, Rare and for Godsake Veneer Top are never uttered here again!!! If you can tell the difference in tone of a maple cap with or without , I want some of the stuff you're smoking!! :wink: T

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