Tokai LP custom

Hello everybody, this is my first post in this forum and I'm a spanish guitarer. My english language is very poor, but I hope that you understand me.

a month ago, I shell a tokai guitar, the sheller (Seikosuru2003) in auction tells that the guitar is a LC90 and with mahogany body, but I see removing the pickups that the body is of clear wood (?basswood?) the serial number of the guitar is 900xxxx and it haves a diamond in the headstock.
Somebody can tell me if the guitar is a real tokai?

Thanks and cheers.

Jose,

Can you post some pictures?

And welcome to the forum.

Ned

Hi Jose Carlos, welcome to the forum 8) .

Yes it would be good to see photographs. But I will make a guess -

first - your Serial Number means guitar is made in 1979. That means lovely old original guitar .

second - look at this one - http://www.tokairegistry.com/images/catalogs/78cat_p9.jpg ? is this like yours, because this is genuine 1978 -1979 Tokai Les Paul Custom.

third - I think Seikosuro is honest man, but maybe does NOT understand the Mahogany wood .... maybe your guitar has Maple top with red colouring.

It is my guess (above), but I think you probably have very good original Tokai 8) .

Ian.

Thank you for your replies :wink: here you are some pictures of the guitar:

http://es.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/iniesto2004/album?.dir=65f3&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//es.photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

Cheers.

Jose.

Thanks for the pictures, very interesting :-? !

OK, this is not obvious, & I am still guessing to some extent, but to cut story short ? I think you have a genuine early 1979 Tokai custom model, and I also think it is expensive type ie LC80 or above (probably LC100) 8) .

Right, now here is the long answer ......

First, compare your guitar to the LC100 shown in 1978 Catalogue (see my link above). There are some differences. First thing is your truss-rod cover is different ("trc"), you have the ?diamond? shape whereas 78 catalogue shows ?bell-shape? cover. But note that ?diamond? cover is seen on Love Rock Models in 1981 Catalogue. Also your tuners are different, they are all-metal ?Grover? style (1978 catalogue shows Kluson type with plastic buttons & unusual ribbed gear-housing).

From 1978 to 1979 Tokai Reborn (ie Les Paul Standard model) had model number impressed at end of Fretboard. I would also expect same number on 1979 Custom, but I see no trace of a number on your guitar? However, I have to admit that early Custom is a rare guitar, and I just don?t know if the number was ever used on the Custom models.

In 1978 catalogue, that LC100 appears to have no number on back of headstock. That?s very surprising to me, but maybe it?s just the way Tokai took the photograph? Where do you find the Serial Number on your guitar, is it impressed into back of headstock?

I also notice your guitar has binding over the fret ends. That was a feature only done on expensive models, ie LC80 & above.

But a key feature in all this is the ?split diamond inlay? on your headstock. Of course, that is an exact copy of original Gibson headstock inlay. In fact that diamond was the main feature which Gibson tried to use in 1970's to threaten Lawsuits against Japanese makers. But, if you look in Tokai catalogues you see that in 1978 the Custom is exactly like yours with correct original Split-Diamond, however, three years later in 1981 the Catalogue appears to show Custom models with completely plain headstock ie with no inlay at all!! Then in 1982 Catalogue the Custom is shown with completely different floral inlay. Finally, in 1984 it shows another form of the ?diamond? but now it?s completely different to Gibson original (a clear example is shown in catalogue marked ?early 80?s?). The 1984 diamond continued right up until 2000 when they changed the pattern yet again, to show a sort of ?Dagger & Scroll? design :-? .

Ian.
PS- I just came back from a very enjoyable few days holiday in Madrid,... very nice city 8) !

Hola Jose Carlos,welcome to the forum.

It was me telling Jose Carlos asking here about his guitar as we have some controversial about being a '79 Tokai.I've never seen a '79 Black Beauty replica being not mahogany body wood,catalogue specificacion says mahogany.I'm certain 900 serail number tells a '79 guitar but it's all very confusing.I notice turners are not Kluson as Ian says,they remember more like my old Burnys I had they were lighter than my lS-70 from 2001.
Maybe this is a Burny leftover branded as Tokai??? .This make me suspect me as Tokai did make some Burnys in the past as someone here suggested and some early Burnys were ALDER body made.Maybe yours is alder body wood maybe Jose Carlos.

Maybe Peter Mac could shed some light here if he came around this post :wink:

Hi Luis ? is Jose?s guitar supposed to be black? It looked deep red in his photos?

OK, it?s just the top that?s making us suspicious, right? I mean the fact that it seems not be mahogany?

Well, two things - First, in that 1978 Catalogue the LC100 has a semi-transparent dark red finish, but I don?t think that grain really looks like Mahogany ? looks more like stained Maple to me (ie the top), but as I say I?m really guessing on all this.

But Second - it occurs to me that un-stained mahogany is not very dark wood, ie looks like plain oak ... it gradually darkens in air over 50 to 100 years (on guitars the dark red colour arises because it's often varnished or dyed). If Jose's guitar has black painted & varnished top, then mahogany in pickup cavity may not be very dark or red at all.

One thing I noticed, but didn?t mention above,? the cut-away looks unusually sharp, rather like a 1980-82 Gibson Les Paul Heritage-80. Maybe just the photo?

Are there any markings in the cavities, eg typical Tokai colour codes (?BB? for black) or model code?

Ian.

Hello guys, thanks for your response, I had looking for code number or similar into the cavities but there was nothing .
The serial number is in back of the headstock like the gibson
Here you are some pics of cavities, the insulation is very good and pots are very good too. In pictures you can see that the colour of wood is not like mahogany

http://es.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/iniesto2004/album?.dir=/c3d5

Cheers

Jose.

OK, in the photos I can only see the wood in the base of the pickup cavities, ie the wood forming the back of the guitar (not the top of the guitar). What I can see in the photo could easily be mahogany.

As I said above - mahogany only looks red when it?s stained or varnished, and only looks dark brown when it?s been aged in air & light for some years. But when it?s newly sawn or kept out of light & air (as in your pickup cavity), then mahogany just has a pale sandy-brown appearance similar to what?s shown in your photo.

Of course a photo is not as good as actually holding the guitar in your hands, & if I saw the guitar I might think differently about that wood, but just from the photo it looks like that wood could be anything, inc. mahogany. But in any case it would not surprise me to find that Tokai & other makers used all sorts of woods under solid colour finishes ... that's why I like sunburst or natural finish (you can see exactly what you're getting).

Is there some other reason we are suspicious about this guitar, because the other features all look correct to me?

Ian.

It looks very new for such an old guitar.

Wow, ian , brilliant explanation!

Thanks 20th century Boy (but hey, don?t encourage me lol !)

Hans ? yes it does look rather new (& I agree that?s usually a pretty good guide) ? I?m not so worried about that exposed wooden strip in pup cavity, because that looks like it was once covered with a strip of tape or something (hence the sharp rectangular outline), and in any case it?s protected under the pickup ? but tuners look very new & hardly used, and other gold hardware seems to show very little wear/tarnish . Strange, because that gold plated hardware usually shows wear & tarnish very easily, eg here?s a pic of what genuine age looks like on gold hardware from a lightly played LP Custom Copy from 1974 (I know it?s genuine, because it?s my guitar & I bought it new in 74) ?



Ian.

ian said:

Strange, because that gold plated hardware usually shows wear & tarnish very easily

Click to expand...

That's what I thought, too, when looking at the pictures. Usually gold hardware looks quite ugly and weared off after only a few years, much more than nickel or chrome. And the black lacquer is very sensitive to small scratches and dings, too, which I can't see on the pictures either (might be due to the photos though). So if this guitar really is from 1979, it must have been hardly ever played.

By the way, that reddish coloration comes from the walls of the room reflecting on the black lacquer in my opinion.

Of course there are plenty of people who buy a guitar, then find to their surprise that it's much more difficult to play than they expected. The guitar gets put aside, and resurfaces decades later, looking virtually un-touched.

Funnily enough I was just listening to that two hour BBC interview with Eric Clapton (?Clapton at 60?), fascinating interview, but he was asked how he first got started with guitar and said ?my grandparents bought me a steel-strung acoustic when I was 15, but it was almost impossible to play, & it hurt, it made my fingers bleed ? the pain wasn?t part of my vision of playing guitar!?. I meet a lot of guitarists who forget how hard it was to get started.

Overall, I have to say Carlos guitar looks correct to me ... 1979 Tokai LP Cusom LC100 or similar ... rare & desirable guitar :-? .

Ian.

Looks like a 1990 model to me???? I've had a few of um-same circuit set up(plastic underneith), I'd have to look at my records I think I had 2 white 1990 Tokai Customs. I bought both of those in Germany though- Looks the same as those puppys to me-
This Black one is Real sweet lookin !!

I think I've found the key please read this thread,Supernout's specially.Hope it helps.

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2877&start=60

All this thread is fantastic!

Aghhhh ! Luis, not that thread please, lol! That raised quite a bit of angry reaction from some guys, came close to getting out of hand ? I don?t want to tread in that stuff again .

But you don?t mean that you think Calos?s guitar could be a fake, do you? I mean it already has fret binding, and simply no profit in changing a guitar like that to look like a Tokai (anyone intending to do that would surely use a Gibson headstock overlay?). The 900xxxx could be 1990 I suppose ? I?d never trust any ?facts? about Tokai 100% ? always remain at least 5% skeptical of any detail of almost any ?vintage/old/used? guitar/amp :-? .

Ian.

OK case closed to me.

Luis ... I was really just kidding, but didn't want to get guys arguing about those inked numbers again ? not putting you off at all, do speak up by all means .

Do you think the guitar may be a Greco with Tokai headstock overlay? I mean it looks OK to me, but I?m just judging from the photos, which is nowhere near as good as actually having the guitar in your hands :-? .

Ian.

Hello guys, thanks for all your response.
I'm think that the guitar maybe of year 1990 because a tokai guitar with serial number 9001536 can be the number 1536 of 1979 or the number 1536 of the 1990.

What do you think?

Cheers

Jose.