HELP ID THIS LP COPY!

Area for Tokai's older than 1985

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Charvelguy
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HELP ID THIS LP COPY!

Post by Charvelguy » Mon Jul 05, 2004 5:58 pm

Hello, .. I bought an older non serialized LP standard Cherry Sunburst copy on Ebay. The logo has been defaced, but the headstock does say Les Paul Model in gold silkscreen-not a decal. It is much like a Tokai/Greco construction. The body is one piece mahogany, the neck is predominent 1 piece. The heel has a small wedge added and the headstock has 2 very slim wing add-ons. The heel is very much like a Tokai and the neck is a bit chunkier than my '78 Greco Std.

In the neck pup cavity is a stamp which reads 450cs.
The top is a thick maple much like an older reborn and is 2 piece non laminated. The back and the neck are not stained as far as I can tell.

The guy I bought from thought it may be a Yamaki.. it could be.. there is very little to nothing on Yamaki Lp copies on the internet, but as far as I know, they did not silkscreen 'Les Paul Model' in gold onto the headstock.
The cherry sunburst seems stained or sprayed on both sides as you can see it thru the control cavity. It came with old Dimarzio's, a SD and a PAF. The pots were out of the guitar when he bought it, so they are not original as are probably the plates save for maybe the bell shaped truss cover. The bridge just says 'Japan' and the stop tailpiece says nothing.

The inlays are silveroid much like old Greco's. This guitar seems to have been crafted alot by hand and is likely before jigs were used as there are inconsistancies in the straightness of the upper inlays. The headstock has some subtle inconsistancy in the sanding as well. Pics to follow.

Charvelguy
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pics

Post by Charvelguy » Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:19 pm


tokaijunkie
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Post by tokaijunkie » Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:29 am

Hi Charvelguy,

here are my toughts about your guitar:

- There is no serial number, no circuit plate and no enclosed PU Switch, so it almost can't be a Tokai at all. But from this point of view it could be a Burny or a Fernandes.
- The headstock is a pretty small version, so it could still be a Burny
- My Fernandes Super Grade has "Made in Japan" written in the base of the bridge... but HW can be changed.
- The color code of my Fernandes is COS, which means Classic Old Sunburst. CS could mean Cherry Sunburst.
- I think I saw some early Burny's (about 1975) with the Les Paul Model logo on the Headstock.
- The bridge PU volume pot is almost inline with the tailpiece inserts. This is a typical Burny/Fernandes characteristic. Check this out:

Image
Image
Image
So in my opinion, it could be an early Burny.

best regards

TokaiJunkie
Only a TOKAI is good enough!

http://guitar.pmn.ch/blackpearl

Paladin2019
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Post by Paladin2019 » Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:28 pm

I remember that guitar was posted on the Les Paul forum. Most of the people there thought it was a Yamaki, so that's what I'd go with.

Great story behind it too. 8)

Charvelguy
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LP copy

Post by Charvelguy » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:00 pm

Thanks so much for the info TJ!

You're right, the headstock is rather thin width-wise, but I did not know of pot placement in relation to stud/tailpiece varied so much as to determine some brands.. hmm, interesting indeed.


The cap on this is solid carved two piece. In the center.. it is quite thick, at least a 1/2 inch if not 5/16 at it's thickest point and then it tapers down to 3/16 where the switch is. It's equal to the binding around the body.
The neck is set or short tenon. If it extends into the cavity, it is very well disguised..I'm positive it is not a long tenon.
The posts for the bridge being screwed directly into the body-they ain't coming out without a vise grip. Their spacing is metric and they will not take a US or aftermarket bridge. I tried putting a Schaller in..no go.
Oh, it just says 'JAPAN' stamped in the underside of the bridge.

Paladin-I went to see the LP forum. There was not a great deal of discussion. Some guy posted the ad from Ebay because someone was having trouble removing paint off a silkscreen headstock. He himself did not own a Yamaki and had no comment. There was a guy from Switzerland who did own a Yamaki custom that had comments about a Yamaki, but nothing relating to this particular guitar being a Yamaki as far as I could tell.
I guess Yamaki had a circuit board attached for the pot/pickups as well.


There are tell-tale indications on this guitar to ID it with. Look at the screw placement for the truss cover.. usually the bell portion sits a little higher and has more spacing betweenthe nut and the bottom of the cover.

The best indicator is the stamp of course. I agree, the CS stands for Cherry Sunburst. The model number seems to be 450, possibly 460, but the rounded portion of the 5 does not look closed.. so 450CS seems the best I can tell. The strap buttons are probably not original. The switch plate looks slightly routed out on one side to fit a USA plate.

I dig this guitar overall outside of the obvious misplacements of the inlays. The tuner holes are not quite perfectly placed either, but I've noticed this seems a fairly common problem on older Japans LP 3x3 headstocks on occasion. Whatever it is...it is probably a mid level early-mid seventies MIJ copy.
The only other telltale signs I could ID this with would be the binding around the cutaway and how it is thickest in the middle of the rounded portion of the cutaway than it is on either the tip/edge or by the neck. The truss rod route too seems to have character.
The paint/stain on the cherry is nicely faded.. not overbearing in the least.

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Re: LP copy

Post by Paladin2019 » Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:53 am

Charvelguy wrote:
Paladin-I went to see the LP forum. There was not a great deal of discussion. Some guy posted the ad from Ebay because someone was having trouble removing paint off a silkscreen headstock. He himself did not own a Yamaki and had no comment. There was a guy from Switzerland who did own a Yamaki custom that had comments about a Yamaki, but nothing relating to this particular guitar being a Yamaki as far as I could tell.
I guess Yamaki had a circuit board attached for the pot/pickups as well.
I remember the thread with many of the exact same pics you posted. I think it was deleted but I have no idea why - maybe because it wasn't gibson related. It was called "the $40 treasure find". Basically the guy had seen this LP in a pawn shop which was beaten to crap, had a refinished top and headstock and was covered in stickers. He noticed the braided wire pickups and figured they were probably worth more than $40 on their own so he bought it. When he got it home he took it apart and noticed that the refinish was a real hackjob and the previous owner hadn't even stripped the original finish. The new paint was simply peeled away with the stickers on top revealing the lovely top you see there. The only problem was the mutilated headstock, which the rest of the forum ID'd as a yamaki.

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Post by Charvelguy » Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:56 am

I apologize,I'm not trying to discredit you in any way, I just thought you may have been mistaken. You have a good memory of it. Most of these pics I took are mine, but I did use a couple from the ebay listing. I'm sure we're discussing the same guitar as the stories match but obviously it was deleted as I did a search for Yamaki at the forum. Yeah, 40.00 IS a good deal in any respects.

I guess I'll try a dental tool and see it I can remove some of the filled area.

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Post by sneakyjapan » Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:18 pm

http://www.therathole.org/guitars/guitarlist.html

this site has a lot of info on Japanese makers. There were so many LP copies made in Japan over the years that I won`t even venture a guess as to what you have. You need to do more research . Good luck.

Charvelguy
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matsumoku

Post by Charvelguy » Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:43 am

Thanks for the link. I own a few Arias, Vantage and MIJ Washburns so I'm familiar with the site.

DNS
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Post by DNS » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:03 am

It might be a Daion, made by Yamaki.
I have one wich looks exacly the same but with tobacco burst finish. Stamped 450TB.
No script Les Paul model on mine.

villager
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Post by villager » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:32 pm

burny maybe 70's..?Old Cherry Sunburst???

no idea really but the script looks burny-ish..

detroitace
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Post by detroitace » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:51 am

Based upon the size and shape of the scratched out name on the headstock, I'd say it's a Yamaki, like Paladin said:

Image

Tokai's logo doesn't extend over the d tuner and Burny, Orville, Yamaha, etc, don't have the right shape. Only the Yamaki seems to match up well enough with the lower leg of the 'Y', fairly straight 'ama' and slightly raised 'k' and dotted 'i'.

Additionally, the headstock itself seems thin like the acoustic headstock on the left.

-- Bill

DNS
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Post by DNS » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:16 pm

It's clearly a Yamaki make, but I thougt the Daion brand logo fitted the scatch. When I look at it again I'm starting to agree with Mr detroitace.
Yamaki also made the Joodee brand Performer LP i seems, but that dosen't fit at all.

Mine is the TB, second row on the right in the LP area BTW.

http://www.cpaulcarter.com/daion/perfor ... tos.htm#LP

Here's a Yamaki with similar script logo.
http://pinebaskets.tripod.com/caronguitar.html

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