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adjieformaggi

Member
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Jan 5, 2010
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Location
Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK
Just a word of warning to anyone considering purchasing a vintage Tokai from tokaiguitar.de OR gpsoo (eBay username) OR Tokai Guitar Germany. I recently purchased a Tokai LS 120 from them through eBay. When the guitar arrived it had some of the worst fret wear that I have ever seen and a check by my local guitar shop confirmed a seriously twisted neck. This seller holds itself out as being an expert in vintage Tokai's, so I find it very hard to believe that they were not aware of these issues yet they neglected to mention them in their eBay listing, or to disclose them in response to my questions regarding the condition of the guitar.

I am posting this information for two reasons: (1) the seller has relisted the guitar on eBay with no mention of these serious issues (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1981-LS120-Tokai-Vintage-Love-Rock-Japan-alt-edel-/201235580153?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item2eda9344f9) and I do not want another unsuspecting purchaser to have the experience I had; and (2) the seller was completely unapologetic and refused to meet the ?80 cost of return postage to Germany - although I am seeking to recover this via eBay.
 
for the avoidance of doubt

The buyer got from me a nice 1981 LS120 with rare solid flamed top and with a repaired neck crack for only Euro 1385.
After arrival he claimed neck issues and possible luthier jobs and forced me to reduce the price for Euro 200 otherwise he would return the guitar.
I did understand, agreed and made a refund of Euro 200.
After 10 days he wanted now a return the guitar - and I agreed also for a return of the LS120 and a refund of the purchase price incl. the shipping cost to UK.
I contacted Ebay with the question, who is responsible for the return costs. According Ebay rules, the buyer is responsible for it.
The guitar was back in town and I made the refund. (purchase price incl. the shipping cost to UK.)
Now he claimed as well the refund of returning costs.
I refused, pointing out the Ebay rules, but then he blackmailed me:
Buyers original text:
Refund my postage costs immediately or I will leave you negative feedback and I will make sure that everyone on the Tokai Registry finds out about my bad experience in dealing with you?

Should I accept his blackmail?
 
Hi guys

To be honest, I don't know any Company who does not have a "return at owners cost" policy - including Sony, LG and many other Corporations.

I think Tokaiguitar.de has been very fair - you weren't happy after 2 weeks and he took the guitar back and refunded the purchase price and shipping.
I personally know other people who have had to go to court to get the refund service he provided to you.
Stop being a ***** - he could have wound this out for months had he wanted to be an arsehole about it, but he wasn't.
The 'Negative Feedback' threat, c'mon dude. I'm sure your little blip of an otherwise 100% rating will be nothing in 12 months.
All this whinging because you had to pay the return postage of 80 quid when you got refunded your 1400 quid.
Seems a bit shallow to me.

Peter Mac

PS: oh yeah, in 2007 I got a Love Rock from him, he shipped it to Australia and it got here perfectly. I wasn't happy with the colour so we talked about another LR. He then sold this one to another party, had me ship it to them on his account and shipped me the 2nd guitar which also arrived perfectly. THAT'S SERVICE
From where I stand, you're being petty. - PM
 
Peter Mac said:
I think Tokaiguitar.de has been very fair - you weren't happy after 2 weeks and he took the guitar back and refunded the purchase price and shipping.

I agree, + to Tokaiguitar.de
 
togps is very honest and nice person. If you want to get 1981 LS120 in mint condition - you will have to pay much more. Or buy a new guitar.
 
Actually, eBay rules provide that for defective items or items that don't correspond to description, which the guitar did not, the seller must refund the return postage costs. It was not simply a case of me changing my mind, which is the critical difference here, and no company worth its salt would charge a customer the cost of returning a defective product. EBay has been in contact with the seller to remind him of his contractual obligations and I should add that I am a contract lawyer so I am aware of my statutory and contractual rights here.

Also, I don't think that using the only leverage I have at my disposal (i.e. Negative feedback) is petty or tantamount to blackmail when I have been left more than ?150 out of pocket due to the seller's selective listing (costs included return shipping, credit card currency conversion and expert's time - note that I'm only seeking to recover my return shipping costs of ?80). The post here was to help the users of the forum avoid the same trap that I fell into.

Anyway, there you have it. I don't propose to waste any more of my time posting or emailing about this. I shall leave it to the seller's conscience to dictate what happens next...
 
How bad is the "twisted neck" ???

Does it make the guitar unplayable ??

I'm having a hard time believing you, especially now that you've let it be known that you are a lawyer. Unless you have some actual proof, its just hot air coming from an old wind bag.

Good day.
 
Oh, I see.

So not only are you a lawyer, but also a luthier. Honestly, I do not trust your judgement.

about leverage - obviously from the response to your threat, it didn't work. The players here have been dealing with Tokai.de far longer and know him better than you do and alas you have been found wanting.

In terms of your statutory rights, being right doesn't mean you're correct. In my experience in the military and security industry, people take an adverse stand when threatened - even if they are not at fault.
You'll catch more ants with honey than you will with excrement.


P.M.
 
Just be grateful you didn't end up in the mess that I did with a vintage Fender Jaguar some years ago.

It arrived with a neck that had been used for slide (like a banana) and a repair using 4 dowels around the fifth fret area.
In spite of all the questions I had asked pre-sale, the nut width was 38mm (probably partly due to the repair that had been done) and the Jag was a f*ckup.

It was a joke. I knew I would have a hard time convincing the seller that it had a repair, as he had lied/avoided the truth about almost everything else.

He agreed to refund, but I had to swallow a bunch of bank transaction fees, postage both ways and a 10% re-stocking fee. I lost about $500 on that one, and the seller was a total c*nt about all the charges,
simply directing me to another website that I had never even been aware of where the postage and re-stocking fees were detailed. No discussion about meeting somewhere in the middle was even entertained,
no matter how many times I tried to appeal to his better nature.

And yeah, I was in the right - in law, but that would have cost a ***** load more than $500 to get a result that way, so I gave up.

But I haven't forgotten that guy... :evil:
 
Just a final note on this issue.

Our blackmailing lawyer "adjieformaggi" has now received from Ebay in return a feedback relating to this matter in my favour. His negative feedback has been removed by Ebay, and ebay rerserves it's right for further steps against this member which could reach from restrictions of his account to temporary or even complete exclusion for trading on Ebay.

Well done Ebay !
 
adjieformaggi said:
Actually, eBay rules provide that for defective items or items that don't correspond to description, which the guitar did not, the seller must refund the return postage costs. It was not simply a case of me changing my mind, which is the critical difference here, and no company worth its salt would charge a customer the cost of returning a defective product. EBay has been in contact with the seller to remind him of his contractual obligations and I should add that I am a contract lawyer so I am aware of my statutory and contractual rights here.

Also, I don't think that using the only leverage I have at my disposal (i.e. Negative feedback) is petty or tantamount to blackmail when I have been left more than ?150 out of pocket due to the seller's selective listing (costs included return shipping, credit card currency conversion and expert's time - note that I'm only seeking to recover my return shipping costs of ?80). The post here was to help the users of the forum avoid the same trap that I fell into.

Anyway, there you have it. I don't propose to waste any more of my time posting or emailing about this. I shall leave it to the seller's conscience to dictate what happens next...

If you're a lawyer then read the ebay rules, it's called "feedback extortion" and it's not allowed.
 
+1 for togps never had any problems apart from wondering where he keeps finding these guitars :D
 

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