Identical serial number on a 1978 LS and a 1978 SS

Look what I found..

hahaha... Nice!

wow... do you think that we have to reconsider some thought about the serials stuff?

oh dear...
well. that changes everything!

Maybe each guitar type (LS, ST, TE, ES, etc) had it's own sequential series of numbers by year....

Yes Marcus but as far as i know we thought about a unique serial sequence until now... is it right jacco?

marcusnieman said:

Maybe each guitar type (LS, ST, TE, ES, etc) had it's own sequential series of numbers by year....

Click to expand...

I think serial duplication examples like this one are pretty isolated.

Since LS numbers began at 8000101, there was little opportunity to keep Fender and G!bson number ranges separate in early 1978.
Number duplication may have happened a bit before Tokai decided on separate Fender + G!bson copy serial # assignment strategies.
Some say number assignments were random, but other than 1980 and 1981 volumes resulting in range overlaps, assignments appeared to be well thought out IMHO. You can date most 7 digit LS model Tokais using only the last 5 digits (and headstock script, since numbers reset after 1981).


Most Fender copies received number assignments lower and higher than G!bson copies with some exceptions.
There are also gaps within LS serial # ranges that were taken up by other G!bson models (and Fender models more commonly during earlier years).


From 1982 on, Fender models (except the Silver Star) went to the 4 to 6 digit format.

Silverstars continued to be mostly assigned to ranges beyond were LS models ended and began the following year, while G!bson copies continued to be largely assigned to gaps within LS serial ranges for the most part.

For example:
1978 LS range 8000101 => 8002153
1978 ST range 8003300 => 8005150

1979 LS range 9002203 => 9006403
1979 SS, ST, TE ranges 9007200 => 9010130

1980 LS range 0006482 => 0011899
1980 SS, ST, TE ranges 0005589 => 0006402 and 0012021 => 0016685

Reborn Old said:

marcusnieman said:

Maybe each guitar type (LS, ST, TE, ES, etc) had it's own sequential series of numbers by year....

Click to expand...

I think serial duplication examples like this one are pretty isolated.

Since LS numbers began at 8000101, there was little opportunity to keep Fender and G!bson number ranges separate in early 1978.
Number duplication may have happened a bit before Tokai decided on separate Fender + G!bson copy serial # assignment strategies.
Some say number assignments were random, but other than 1980 and 1981 volumes resulting in range overlaps, assignments appeared to be well thought out IMHO. You can date most 7 digit LS model Tokais using only the last 5 digits (and headstock script, since numbers reset after 1981).


Most Fender copies received number assignments lower and higher than G!bson copies with some exceptions.
There are also gaps within LS serial # ranges that were taken up by other G!bson models (and Fender models more commonly during earlier years).


From 1982 on, Fender models (except the Silver Star) went to the 4 to 6 digit format.

Silverstars continued to be mostly assigned to ranges beyond were LS models ended and began the following year, while G!bson copies continued to be largely assigned to gaps within LS serial ranges for the most part.

For example:
1978 LS range 8000101 => 8002153
1978 ST range 8003300 => 8005150

1979 LS range 9002203 => 9006403
1979 SS, ST, TE ranges 9007200 => 9010130

1980 LS range 0006482 => 0011899
1980 SS, ST, TE ranges 0005589 => 0006402 and 0012021 => 0016685

Click to expand...

I recently rediscovered some of my Tokai serial log on an old hard disk, hence the start of this thread.


I agree with John that serial duplications are incidents.


I see that there were certain ranges each year where you can find predominantly guitars of certain types of models (let's say LS) and/or certain types (Fender or Gibson copies). But these ranges were quite short, except for year's endings.


I also found that there were more Fender copies produced than Gibson copies, at least during 1978/79 but most probably up to and including 1981. This also explaines why certain ranges don't have Gibson copies, especially at year's endings.


My impression is that serialisation was done at random, with a few exeptions.


I will give some examples from my log from which some will contradict and some will reinforce John's findings.


1978:

Range for Gibson models 8000101 to 8002040
Range for Fender models 8000003 to 8004229

A mix without range for certain type or model up to 8002040.
No Gibson models in the range 8002040 to 8004229.


1979:

Range for Gibson models 9000202 to 9006403
Range for Fender models 9000833 to 9009598

Short ranges for Gibson models within ~9002400 to ~9002650, 9005400 to ~9006200
Short ranges for Fender models within ~9002650 to ~9002800, ~9005000 to ~9005200

No Gibson models in the range 9006403 to 8009598.


1980:

Range for Gibson models 0005702 to 0011896
Range for Fender models 0000003 to 0016034

(Short) ranges for Gibson models within ~0006400 to ~0006750, ~0006950 to ~9008000, ~0008600 to 0008900, ~001000 to ~0010200, 0010500 to ~0010750
Short ranges for Fender models within ~008000 to ~0008250

No Gibson models in the range 0000003 to 0005702 and 0011896 to 0016034.


1981:

Range for Gibson models 1010458 to 1016397
Range for Fender models 1011859 to 1024583

(Short) ranges for Gibson models within ~1012850 to ~1013600
Short ranges for Fender models within ~1014450 to ~1014750, ~101520 to 1015700

No Fender models in the range 1010458 to 1011859
No Gibson models in the range 1016397 to 1024583


These are findings from hundreds of logged Tokai's during the period 1978-1981, but we are talking about 45 thousand guitars produced within these ranges, so it's still guess work

jacco said:

1979:
Range for Gibson models 9000202 to 9006403

Click to expand...

Is the low end of your 1979 range based on that one 1979 inkie you found ?
... or did you come across more Reborns between 9000202 + 9002150 ?

Is the neck on 9000202 one piece or two ?

I've come across quite a few LS models in the 9000700 to 9002150 range
but they were all 1990 Love Rocks.

Reborn Old said:

jacco said:

1979:
Range for Gibson models 9000202 to 9006403

Click to expand...

Is the low end of your 1979 range based on that one 1979 inkie you found ?
... or did you come across more Reborns between 9000202 + 9002150 ?

Is the neck on 9000202 one piece or two ?

I've come across quite a few LS models in the 9000700 to 9002150 range
but they were all 1990 Love Rocks.

Click to expand...

Hi John,

That's not an inkie but a normal serial Reborn with a 2P neck, owned by one of the members here.

I know what you mean, I found numerous 1990 models within that range on the Registry.
But I have found 2 other Reborns within that 1979 range, one of them is 9000570 and the other I will know when my friend returns with my hard drive in 5 months or so.


As an example of randomness of the serialisation in 1978;

8000323 ST-50
8000324 SS-60
8000325 LS-50

Best,
Jacco

Thanks !

All info contributes to a clearer picture. : )

PS there?s a Reborn with serial 900000 in the Registry..

jacco said:

PS there?s a Reborn with serial 900000 in the Registry..

Click to expand...

I personally put very little weight on info from the registry database beyond confirming what I already know to be fact.

Was it a 6 digit number in the registry entry ?
If you don't throw out values like that, you can end up making wrong assumptions and/or constantly second guessing yourself.

Was it an LS model or later ES Reborn ?

I remember seeing a 1981 LS Reborn listed there with a 10150xx #, amongst the myriad of other errors and/or typos. :-?

It's unfortunate that registry entry lines aren't numbered and duplicate entries deleted.

Reborn Old said:

jacco said:

PS there?s a Reborn with serial 900000 in the Registry..

Click to expand...

I personally put very little weight on info from the registry database beyond confirming what I already know to be fact.

Was it a 6 digit number in the registry entry ?
If you don't throw out values like that, you can end up making wrong assumptions and/or constantly second guessing yourself.

Was it an LS model or later ES Reborn ?

I remember seeing a 1981 LS Reborn listed there with a 10150xx #, amongst the myriad of other errors and/or typos. :-?

It's unfortunate that registry entry lines aren't numbered and duplicate entries deleted.

Click to expand...

It?s quite easy: don?t use data from the registry of which you are uncertain.
The 1981 LS Reborn you quote is a 2010 Reborn series..

jacco said:

It?s quite easy: don?t use data from the registry of which you are uncertain.
The 1981 LS Reborn you quote is a 2010 Reborn series.

Click to expand...

2010 LS's all have 2's as a 3rd digit, in their serial numbers, so it's either a typo or an entry from an unknowing new Tokai owner.

Not the German ones.
Again: only use the ones you are certain of.

The 2010 Reborns I've managed to log are all 102xxxx.

I haven't come across a 2010 with a 101xxxx serial number yet and I can't imagine why Tokai Gakki would change serial number formats for special orders.
They haven't with past special orders.

Any pics or links ?

You are right with 2010 serials John.

Thanks Luis.

I'm always open to MIJ exceptions, and Jacco has found many. :wink:

Luis, Jacco, John,

I'm sure there was another thread about this not too long ago.
Serialization is an important part of the process of ID, but not the only way to recognise models and years.
I did a spreadsheet of the data base and eliminated nearly 70% as unreliable info. Most of the info I've utilised has been from watching auctions and recording serials and specs of guitars listed as well as from certain TF members (including you 3) who have a good grasp on it all.
Most of my data I can support photographically also - including a 1977 ST and LS. I have a serial for a second ST but no photo.

I would really love for us to compare and share notes in a private location to have a more accurate picture.

regards
Peter mac