Was this once a ST-50

Hi I am new to the forum and almost as new to guitars, well playing one anyway. However, 10 years ago I set out with good intentions of re- learning having bought this guitar from a colleague who was emigrating down under to NZ. Other things got in the way and here I am back at square 3. In light of what I have recently learnt on these forums I still don't think the removal to the other side of the world was due to this guitar not being what it seemed, he knew little more than I about the complicated world of strat copies etc. I was not aware then just how well thought of Tokai's were/are, just as well given the state this specimen is in. As you can see from one of the pics. a mad axeman (acknowledgement to an observation in one of Stratman's posts) has been at this guitar (bridge pup space ). The stickers on the pups state Schaller - West Germany (pre 1989/90 I would guess then?). But why remove the originals? The stamped number on the body and neck match as 5 -18, the plate serial number is L30226. For some reason damage has also been done to the scratchplate just above the pup selector switch.
Tuners have Deluxe stamped on them and saddles 'final prospec'.
The guitar was sounding okay until I started messing about with it.
Are you able to confirm that prior to vandalism this would have set out in life as a perfectly happy 1984+ ST50?
Thanks

PS have been reading old posts, the knowledge you guys have accumulated is amazing.
I just hope the pics are here!

http://s553.photobucket.com/albums/jj363/njnall/

Hi, and welcome!

I'm no expert, but I'm sure one will be along in a minute. In the meantime...

That doesn't look too bad to be honest. As you can see, animals have been at the rear pickup cavity. My guess is that someone's tried to fit a humbucker at some point then reverted to single coils.

Throw that piece of tinfoil in the control cavity away before Stratman323 sees it or he'll have flashbacks and cold sweats! :laugh:

The pickups are replacements, but that's easily remedied. You could try to find some Tokai ones, or just do what most people do and fit some aftermarket ones that you like. This may have been what's happened to this one in the past, then the originals have been lost or sold. When it's time to remove the fancy pickups for the next main "axe" and move the guitar on some cheaper ones have been thrown in there.

The body is interesting. It looks like it would have been painted originally because the grain isn't a very good match, yet the inside looks natural. Sunburst sanded back to natural maybe? Or would it have been like that from new? I wouldn't have thought so with a '60s style round-lam fingerboard and small headstock, but then I'm no authority on them.

You could still make a very nice guitar out of that for not much money if you invested a bit of time and effort. It'd be a rewarding little project. :wink:

Thanks for your thoughts.

I had been wondering whether the body modification was due to someone fitting a humbucker, but wassn't sure for certain, I really am a novice in these matters.
I will be keeping a lookout for suitable pickups, but am in no hurry. The problem with removing the silver foil immediately is that the pots seem to have been re-wired for its presence and until I feel confident enough to understand which wire goes where and undertake a bit of re-soldering work I'll have to make do.

The two halves of the body is lot more apparent in the photos, than looking at it with the naked eye. I know my eyesight is terrible but it took me a while to notice the join! If the body had originally been painted would not the production markings have been different, that is, giving a colour code as well as the numbers for month & batch?

Could anyone advise whether the sratchguard looks as though it is original, if it is I inclined to leave in situ despite there being a hole in it, especially as it seems impossible to get a replacement that matches. I'd have to save the pennies to get a custom made one, unless someone knows where one can obtain a Srat '64 type sratchplate, assuming that is that is what the guitar is.

Guess what I've found? It seems your colour may be original after all.

http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a278/generalunrest/Tokai%20ST-100%20NAT%201979/

From here:

http://www.japanguitars.co.uk/page%206%20Tokai.html



Wiring is really nothing to be scared of, honestly. There's so many wiring diagrams out there that you can download and I'm sure everyone on here would be happy to give you any advice. Here's some useful links for your guitar:

http://axesrus.co.uk/images/awiring.pdf

This one should be the exact same wiring as yours:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5703/60sstratwiringtv2.jpg

Scratchplate? Not sure if a Fender one will fit exactly, I believe it will, but without actually trying one it's difficult to be sure. If it does then there's lots available. Like this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PARCHMENT-STRAT-STRATOCASTER-GUITAR-PICKGUARD_W0QQitemZ130234772070QQihZ003QQcategoryZ42455QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

BUT: This looks promising:

"*we will despatch asap for you but please allow upto 28 days for delivery on pickguards as they are all custom made*"

No reason why they can't make a new one using your old one as a template.

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/guitarpartsworldwide_Guitar-Parts-63-categories_Pickguards_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZQ2d1QQfsubZ14688570QQftidZ1QQtZkm

I use these guys a lot, and Mark there is really helpful and happy to chat. Give them a shout. I'm sure they can help.

Pickups? Don't even get me started on those! :lol: There are as many options as there are guitarists out there, and each player has his own preference. Live with the Schallers while you decide is my advice.

Hi & welcome,

Well I reckon what you have is just fine, & rather rare in that natural finish - which must be original due to the body stamp. OK, there's a bit of extra routing around the bridge pickup, but nothing to lose any sleep over. It might knock a few ?s off the value if you sold it, but the wood removed is unlikely to be enough to affect the sound much, if at all.

Just as a reminder, this was the one I bought - now returned:



Not exactly in the same league is it? So don't worry about yours! As for the two parts of the body on yours not being a perfect match, I think it looks great, & looks like a nice bit of wood too. Is that really alder? Looks more like sen ash to me.

The only thing that I'm unsure about is the position of the body code. On both my Springys, the body code is in the same location as on yours:



but on all 4 Goldies, it's in the control cavity:




So my first thought was that you might have a Springy body & a Goldie neck. But if the codes match, that seems unlikely. So I can't explain that one - maybe yours was one of the earliest Goldies (late 1983 perhaps?) - a sort of transition model.

Does anyone have a 1983 block decal Springy or Goldie - if so, please tell us where the body stamp is.

Everything about yours seems to be original apart from the pickups. I'm not clear why someone has drilled that extra hole in the original scratchplate (the brass plate under the controls means it's original Tokai) - it seems to have been used as some sort of grounding point? No idea why, as the brass plate on Tokais serves as a really neat grounding point. Personally, I would keep the original scratchplate & just live with the extra hole - it's not too obvious.

So, the only thing you might want to replace is the pickups, depending on what the current ones are like. But if you're still learning to play guitar, there's probably no need, at least not yet. Just get a set of white Strat pickup covers to replace the ugly black ones, & you should have a nice looking, rare finish, almost original Goldie to enjoy learning on.

And if you decide you don't want it, I might be interested in taking it off your hands.....

:wink:

Mike

Yes amigo,what you have ai an 83/84 St55 .The body is two piece ash, I repeat Ash in original natural poly finish.How do I know this ? Because i`ve got an almost identical one and she`s the best Goldie I`ve ever played.Congratulations Gabe.

Hey Gabe, good to hear from you again. Yes I thought of your Goldie as soon as I saw the pics. And you're right, yours is a good 'un. :wink:

Not that there are many bad Goldies, just a few that have a slight edge over the rest.

Yep, great to see you back on the forum Gabe, try not to leave it too long before your next post! :wink:

As others have said, the route mod on the bridge pickup cavity is no big deal, and the guitar looks fantastic when it's got all its bits on!

Now, (new member apology/warning) what's the story about replacing the pick guard? There seems to be thousands of Strat PGs out there,
you could even get a loaded one with nice pickups and the wiring mostly already done if you don't fancy doing the rewiring yourself.
Are Tokai PGs a non-standard shape?

Mike,
Jeezum crow that home made swimming pool route is pus!

That must have been a nasty surprise, glad you could return it. I will be sure to have a look under the PG of my in transit Breezy.

Cheers
Raph

JVsearch said:

Now, (new member apology/warning) what's the story about replacing the pick guard? There seems to be thousands of Strat PGs out there,
you could even get a loaded one with nice pickups and the wiring mostly already done if you don't fancy doing the rewiring yourself.
Are Tokai PGs a non-standard shape?

Click to expand...

I reckon the Tokai SPs are better than the rest. First you have that neat little brass plate under the controls, which acts as shielding, & it provides nice convenient tags for soldering the earth connections to - saves having to solder the earths wires to the back of the pots. No other Strats have this.

Also, the Tokai switch is, in my opinion, better than any other Strat switch I've tried.

But, if you do want to change it, remember that RW board Goldies are 64 Strat copies, the Fenders (US & Japan) are 62 copies, so the Tokais have the period correct holes in the SP, which are different to the 62 position. To fit a Fender SP on a Goldie you would have to redrill at least one hole, maybe more than one. Why bother?

stratman323 said:

I reckon the Tokai SPs are better than the rest. First you have that neat little brass plate under the controls, which acts as shielding, & it provides nice convenient tags for soldering the earth connections to - saves having to solder the earths wires to the back of the pots. No other Strats have this.

Also, the Tokai switch is, in my opinion, better than any other Strat switch I've tried.

But, if you do want to change it, remember that RW board Goldies are 64 Strat copies, the Fenders (US & Japan) are 62 copies, so the Tokais have the period correct holes in the SP, which are different to the 62 position. To fit a Fender SP on a Goldie you would have to redrill at least one hole, maybe more than one. Why bother?

Click to expand...

Ah, those are good features - trust Tokai to improve the old design a little bit!

Hell no, drilling, no way, I wont even widen the holes in the head stock of my Les Paul to replace the tuners, which would be a nice way
to get rid of the horrible snot green tuner buttons that Gibson loves so much!

Ugh back from the day job and reality kicks in after the New Year revelries.
Goestoeleven thanks for all the links, much appreciated.

I haven't worked out how you add a quote, so hi to Stratman 323. I didn't see the pictures of "that" guitar as bucketshop had deleted the first 2 images in your post by the time i got round to reading it. What a mess!
I have to admit that my guitar sounds okay, though I am only playing it through a practice amp. Also that it feels great, can't explain why - it just does and the bloke I bought it off had been very reluctant to part with it.
I was wondering whether the body code was in the neck pickup cavity simply because it was a natural finish, but that it was just easier to stamp and protect the code in the control cavity for bodies given an alternative finish. But with the quirks that Tokai seem to throw up at every opportunity........oops I'm rambling.
Err.... how do you tell ash from alder?
I actuallly bought a set of white strat pickup covers to replace the black ones, but when I unscrewed the pickups from the scratchplate it was apparent that the black pickup covers were pretty well stuck on and I didn't really want to inadvertently damage the pickups by prising them apart.
As you have confirmed the stratchplate as an original Tokai (and thanks for that), I am inclined to keep it even with the annoying extra drilled hole.

I know I have read this on a post somewhere and I should of kept the details, but can someone please tell me how to incorporate photos in the main part of the post. Thanks.

njnall said:

I haven't worked out how you add a quote

Click to expand...

You click QUOTE on the post to which you're replying, you delete the bits you don't need to quote, making sure you keep the quote thingys in their square brackets. Then you type what you want to say in reply at the end. I think there's a way of using multiple quotes in one post, but I haven't worked that out yet!

I understand that your Goldie feels great, RW board Goldies have a superb neck profile, I love them. The reviewers all said they were great guitars back in the early 80s - now that they are genuine vintage guitars in their own right, we know how true that was. Enjoy.

There's probably no point in rushing into changing the pickups till you get a better amp. If you're using a decent valve amp, the differences between pickups will become apparent, with a basic practice amp it probably won't make much difference. Mind you, if you need to change the pickups to change the covers, that might be a bit more of an incentive.

njnall said:

can someone please tell me how to incorporate photos in the main part of the post. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Once you have loaded your pics onto a hosting site, like photobucket, there's a bit on the photobucket site under the thumbnail of the pic that says "direct link". You might have to move the mouse around to get it to show up. Left click that, then click the "Img" button when you are posting, right click after that to paste the link, then click "Img" again. Click on Preview to see if it's worked, & keep trying till it does. It sounds harder than it is.

Ash & alder? You need a wood expert for that one - try doing a Google search, that should bring some useful stuff up. Broadly speaking, alder is a much plainer wood, easier to seal & finish, so ideal for solid colours. For see through finishes, ash is much more attractive, often with prominent grain. It can be very heavy or very light, & it tends to sound a bit brighter than alder. Tokai used a Japanese variant of ash called Sen, & they must have had a great supplier in the early 80s, as you see some beatiful examples, though sen is quite rare on Goldies. My 1980 Springy ST60 is one of the most attractive I've seen.




This is (I assume) alder, on a relicked ESP.

If I am not completely mistaken (pics are not that good) the copper-shielding on pickguard and the pots point to an 83/84 GS.

The body is VERY interesting. Never saw one of them on a GS, only ST.

Rup

The tremolo backplate on the guitar is not original, the screw positions on the backplate do not match those on the guitar. I have been looking at lots of pictures in various forum threads and it looks as though the backplates were 1 ply, can someone please confirm this is correct before I try to find one that fits. Cheers.

I think all Strat backplates (Tokai & Fender) were single ply. Backplates seem to vary in size, shape & screw spacing more than any other Strat part, & I haven't worked out the pattern of which ones fit which guitar. They can be a bit of a nuisance when it comes to re-stringing, so lots of people removed them, so they often got lost. You could always just do without?

Well I went ahead anyway and bought a set of Tokai pickups, I don?t know whether this will be of use or interest but here are the details of the IIV stamped pickups that I have put in my ST55.

Neck 5.76k Ohms
Middle 5.64k Ohms
Bridge 5.76k Ohms

I can only describe the sound as being cleaner[quieter] and as a bonus I managed to get rid of the ?buzz? on the A string although I?m not quite sure what it was that worked.

Pictures of the ?regenerated? guitar attached because Stratman323 kindly showed how it could be done.







The Schaller [S6?] pickups that I removed gave readings of 13.54, 13.38 & 13.40 and at first thought I hadn?t got the hang of using the multimeter correctly. However a quick check of the Schaller and Harmony Central websites confirmed the readings were correct. It?s no wonder a previous owner had shielded the pup routing!

A rare finish Goldie restored to her original glory - that's what I call a happy ending. Well done & congratulations. Nice to see people treating these babies with respect.



You could always bring her to Leeds next Saturday afternoon to show her off?