ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Area for Tokai's older than 1985

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guitar hiro
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by guitar hiro » Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:54 am

Sigmania wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:46 am
I wish I had close up shots of the neck on it and of the FO ST70.

I wonder how thick that cap is? Do the frets rest entirely within the cap? Under the cap, is there a void where the truss rod is or is the truss rod set lower so that it’s solid above it?

Would like to have one in hand to inspect. 8)

the old school vintage Fender maple cap necks don't pop up much these days so, seeing one in person is gonna be uncommon, IMO.

I have a Fender Japan maple cap neck buried deep in a pile of Strat cases; haven't seen that guitar in a coons age, and I have no idea how close to original spec it was produced. One day, when I have some spare time, I could dig through the pile, and see what the construction looks like. :wink:

guitar hiro
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by guitar hiro » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:24 am

I located this old Reverb listing for a vintage maple cap neck; has some interesting photos that demonstrate the construction

https://reverb.com/ca/item/379011-vinta ... ndrix-tone

looks like the very bottom edge of the fret tangs are at the very bottom of the maple cap piece but not quite going into the underlying neck lumber

Sigmania
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by Sigmania » Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:40 am

Cool. I'll save the pics here.

1970 neck selling for $2,995.... :o

Looks like the truss rod is enclosed below the cap.

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That’s alright ‘cause I still got my guitar… ‘79 LS80 GT Reborn, '79 ST100 Springy, '81 LS100S Hog, '81 ST70R Slab Springy, ‘81 ST80R Springy, '81 TE120 Breezy, '82 LS120 Love Rock, '82 JB50 Jazz Sounds

Sigmania
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by Sigmania » Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:22 am

My understanding is that the reasoning behind having a maple cap over a maple neck was to help prevent twisting?

I also read somewhere that the impetus to put a rosewood fretboard on was that over time the maple necks start to look dirty from use. Even Leo Fender thought that.

Interesting stuff.
That’s alright ‘cause I still got my guitar… ‘79 LS80 GT Reborn, '79 ST100 Springy, '81 LS100S Hog, '81 ST70R Slab Springy, ‘81 ST80R Springy, '81 TE120 Breezy, '82 LS120 Love Rock, '82 JB50 Jazz Sounds

Stringzy
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by Stringzy » Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:08 pm

The benefits of the cap could well make sense, Sigmania. Presumably the cap stabilizes the neck to prevent the torsioning and subsequent twisting as the wood drys and matures.

I was talking guitars last week with the luthier at a fairly high end local guitar shop, and he warned me that highly figured maple necks can twist, and this is why some builders are implanting graphite rods in them to stabilize the neck for the long term. I’m privately buying a boutique S type guitar with a figured maple neck that I haven’t played or seen, and this luthier warned me to watch out for twisting in the neck, as it is a fatal flaw, and can’t be feasibly corrected. Maybe the cap is an effort to avert this from happening?
1980 ST-50 Springy, 1989 Sadowsky Strat

guitar hiro
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by guitar hiro » Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:40 pm

I see the speculation as to the reasoning why Fender produced the maple cap neck interesting; I'll jump in the fray.

My opinion is below, and could be completely wrong: :lol:
1. Fender previously produced maple necked guitars, for many years, and I assume many Fender players preferred maple necks.
2. Fender produced the slab board rosewood neck, which must have been a disappointment to many Fender maple neck fans.
3. Fender then transitions to the round laminated rosewood neck.
4. Fender was likely contacted by many fans of the maple neck to once again produce guitars with a maple neck. With the tooling in place for the round laminated rosewood necks, Fender likely decided to produce 'all' maple necks with the tooling, and the design they had, at that time.

That all seems logical.

Sigmania
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by Sigmania » Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:51 pm

FWIW my 1979 ST100.

Highly figured maple. No issues with the neck.

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That’s alright ‘cause I still got my guitar… ‘79 LS80 GT Reborn, '79 ST100 Springy, '81 LS100S Hog, '81 ST70R Slab Springy, ‘81 ST80R Springy, '81 TE120 Breezy, '82 LS120 Love Rock, '82 JB50 Jazz Sounds

Stringzy
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by Stringzy » Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:17 pm

That is one absolutely stunning guitar!!! I didn’t realize that Tokai ever used figured maple on their necks.

I actually think that maybe the luthier was referring to Birdseye maple being inherently unstable by its grain pattern. When I bought my Sadowsky Strat in 1989, Roger told me that he didn’t trust Birdseye for necks. Maybe he’s changed by now.
1980 ST-50 Springy, 1989 Sadowsky Strat

Sigmania
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by Sigmania » Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:28 am

Thanks. There are definitely some flame neck Tokais out there. You can search this forum for them. The folks at Tokai were craftsmen at a time when a lot of American companies seemed to have forgotten about it and the folks at Tokai had high regard for quality pieces of wood.

The ST70 that this thread is focused on is a super cool guitar. I was hoping Peter Mac would jump in and share some of his wealth of knowledge. He had told me that there was evidently some sharing of design information by Fender at the time they were in negotiations with Tokai to build guitars around 1980/81(?) before eventually using Fujigen. Fujigen then made the ST62 for Fender in Japan starting in 1982? I wonder if Fender shared info on this rare '64 maple cap model with Tokai at the time, or if the folks at Tokai found it independently? There is a story there that we may never know.
That’s alright ‘cause I still got my guitar… ‘79 LS80 GT Reborn, '79 ST100 Springy, '81 LS100S Hog, '81 ST70R Slab Springy, ‘81 ST80R Springy, '81 TE120 Breezy, '82 LS120 Love Rock, '82 JB50 Jazz Sounds

guitar hiro
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by guitar hiro » Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:36 am

Sigmania wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:28 am
I wonder if Fender shared info on this rare '64 maple cap model with Tokai at the time, or if the folks at Tokai found it independently? There is a story there that we may never know.

the Japanese have proven again & again they are very adapt at 'reverse engineering' so many different products, guitars included, that they would not require the help of Fender

Sigmania
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by Sigmania » Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:00 pm

The green ST70 arrived today from Japan. I learned some things about it.

First someone really screwed up the wiring in it and the pick guard and pickups selector and two pots were changed.

Also, this guitar is not 2 piece center seam as I think some of the literature says. This one seems to be 3 piece alder.

I'll attach pictures.

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That’s alright ‘cause I still got my guitar… ‘79 LS80 GT Reborn, '79 ST100 Springy, '81 LS100S Hog, '81 ST70R Slab Springy, ‘81 ST80R Springy, '81 TE120 Breezy, '82 LS120 Love Rock, '82 JB50 Jazz Sounds

bluejeannot
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by bluejeannot » Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:27 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4ZJ00vV2eo Hi, E pickups were not made by Di Marzio they were made by Gotoh who supplied all other Tokai alnico pickups at this time. The one exception was the 83/84 Goldstar st 80 which had a 2 piece lightweight alder body finished in nitro, celluloid pickguard and black backed Di Marzio VS 1 pickups fitted as standard. The Goldstar St80 was also fitted with a rosewood slab board to mimic the 1960 Strat it was modelled on. The link above shows my own guitar being played at a Tokai convention a good few years ago.
bluejeannot

Sigmania
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by Sigmania » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:00 pm

bluejeannot wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:27 pm
E pickups were not made by Di Marzio they were made by Gotoh
I deleted the DiMarzio attribution and just left it as E pickups.

Those have been a mystery to me as to who made them. I had recently read that they were made by DiMarzio.

If you could point me to more info on them I would appreciate it.

Here’s one thread that says they are DiMarzios:

“ the top ones werestamped E they were dimarzios”

And

“ Tokai E Series pickups ( Which were made by Dimarzio 'VS-1's')”

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4438

Thanks!
That’s alright ‘cause I still got my guitar… ‘79 LS80 GT Reborn, '79 ST100 Springy, '81 LS100S Hog, '81 ST70R Slab Springy, ‘81 ST80R Springy, '81 TE120 Breezy, '82 LS120 Love Rock, '82 JB50 Jazz Sounds

mdvineng
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by mdvineng » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:53 pm

ST100<120 had Dimarzio VS-1 with black backs but not exclusively.
ST60 80 had the Gotoh ST vintage stamped E, wound to the same original Strat spec and average around 5.7k alnico V.
Tokai VSB80 OF, Michael Kelly Patriot custom, Epiphone Elite SG & EB3. 8)

Sigmania
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Re: ST70 "Rare Model" Springy

Post by Sigmania » Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:50 am

This is apparently an old debate. How was it settled that E’s are not DiMarzios, but Goto or Gotohs?

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=22970

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6678
That’s alright ‘cause I still got my guitar… ‘79 LS80 GT Reborn, '79 ST100 Springy, '81 LS100S Hog, '81 ST70R Slab Springy, ‘81 ST80R Springy, '81 TE120 Breezy, '82 LS120 Love Rock, '82 JB50 Jazz Sounds

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