Lawsuit?

Tokai Forum

Help Support Tokai Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
There actually was filed a lawsuit against Tokai.
Just not in the early '80s, but between 2004 ↔ 2009 and it concerned only LS (Gibson Les Paul replica) models.
 
And the result was?

Or is the one where Gibson sued multiple companies and lost them all? Even the PRS one was rescinded after a few years.
 
HI guys,
It is a safe bet that the changes bought about in the middle of 1980 was caused from the factorys view of importing into the USA ...which began in 1982.
Fender USA also approached Tokai around the same time (1980) to produce the new Fender Japan range hence the change in 1981 to Fender-spec Springys and the gradual change in logo and serial numbers. The contract eventually went elsewhere, but the headstock re-shape didn't start till late 1982. The USA catalogs in 1983 and 1984 have altered headstocks with TST-56, TST-62 and TTE-52 model numbers, even though the rest of the World markets continued to receive the regular headstock shape. 1985 bought a Model name change to AST instead of TST.
I would think that Tokai, hearing what was happening to Ibanez USA, brought in the changes to dodge a potential bullet before taking on the American market.
America was a big market for Tokai in the early-80s. I remember trying to order ES-100s - only to be told that the whole ES-100 production for the next Year had already been ordered by USA
regards
Peter Mac
 
Peter Mac said:
HI guys,
It is a safe bet that the changes bought about in the middle of 1980 was caused from the factorys view of importing into the USA ...which began in 1982.
Click to expand...

Awesome. Thank you!
 
mdvineng said:
And the result was?

Or is the one where Gibson sued multiple companies and lost them all? Even the PRS one was rescinded after a few years.
Click to expand...

Gibson-vs-Tokai.png
 
felixcatus said:
mdvineng said:
And the result was?

Or is the one where Gibson sued multiple companies and lost them all? Even the PRS one was rescinded after a few years.
Click to expand...

Gibson-vs-Tokai.png
Click to expand...

Interesting. What was the ruling?
 
Interesting.... Does it specify what exactly the trademark infringement was?

Also, it looks like the only money awarded was to cover Gibson's lawyers? Gibson wasn't after money. Curious what the suit was actually about?
 
so in effect they lost but were awarded costs.

Gibson just lost against Dean guitars about the flying V shape recently too!
 
2005 hans-j?rgen Interview with Shohei Adachi, Tokai president.

Q1: Will there ever be officially distributed exact Tokai copies of Gibson and Fender guitars in the two major export markets USA and Germany again?

A1: We will never sell our LS models in the USA and Germany as you know.

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4434
 
2005 hans-j?rgen Interview with Shohei Adachi, Tokai president.

Q10: What did the additional characters like "A" or "N" in front of the usual "LS" mean in the past? In the 2003-2004 catalog it seems that "ALS" stands for Korean models for the domestic Japanese market, i.e. with the exact Gibson headstock shape. On the other hand the available "ALS" models from Tokai UK do not have the exact headstock, so is there a rule what these additional characters mean or meant? Another example would be "NES" for export models of the ES copies.

A10: In 1980's we sold LS model with modified headstock to the USA, which model number is ALS. So actually A means America and the modified headstock. In 2002 we modified LS body and headstock and tried to sell them in the USA, which model is NLS models. N means New. So NLS model has a modified body and neck. NES model is ES body and a modified headstock. So the body was not modified. So we know there is some coufusion about the model number.

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4434
 
Peter Mac said:
HI guys,
It is a safe bet that the changes bought about in the middle of 1980 was caused from the factorys view of importing into the USA ...which began in 1982.
Fender USA also approached Tokai around the same time (1980) to produce the new Fender Japan range hence the change in 1981 to Fender-spec Springys and the gradual change in logo and serial numbers. The contract eventually went elsewhere, but the headstock re-shape didn't start till late 1982. The USA catalogs in 1983 and 1984 have altered headstocks with TST-56, TST-62 and TTE-52 model numbers, even though the rest of the World markets continued to receive the regular headstock shape. 1985 bought a Model name change to AST instead of TST.
I would think that Tokai, hearing what was happening to Ibanez USA, brought in the changes to dodge a potential bullet before taking on the American market.
America was a big market for Tokai in the early-80s. I remember trying to order ES-100s - only to be told that the whole ES-100 production for the next Year had already been ordered by USA
regards
Peter Mac
Click to expand...

To support Peter Mac’s point, see the last paragraph of the attached letter sent to Leo Fender.

WoAFoJU.jpg



http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21672
 
Sigmania said:
So this boils down to changing the Fender style headstock and spaghetti logo out of fear of potential action in markets where Fender held some sway legally, assuming Tokai wanted access to those markets.

What I get confused over is that Tokais are not sold in the US. I don’t think they ever were. Every one I’ve bought here in the US was imported.

So why the change?

Also, another member mentioned that the Fender type headstock and spaghetti logo persisted in Europe beyond 1983/84.

Still a head scratcher for me.

Maybe ultimately it was about getting the contract with Fender?
Click to expand...
The Fender headstock shape did persist in Europe up till maybe 88/89 but the spaghetti logo was dropped in 83 in favour of first the block logo and then the the same logo that persists on Goldstars to this day was introduced probably in 83.Interestingly Tokai STs with the slogan "Made in Japan By Rock and Fanatics" adorn both block logo Springys and very early Goldstars. This slogan was dropped very quickly and by 84 changed to "The Quality Musical instruments of the World" I think I prefer the "Rock and Roll Fanatics slogan" :D
 
https://www.gbase.com/gear/tokai-tst-62-stratocaster-1984-reissue-sunburst As for Tokais on sale in the USA this STS62 guitar with its distinctive US only logo and modified headstock shape was certainly available in the US in 83/84.Interestingly the rosewood board model had a slab fingerboard and both maple and rosewood models had E stamped pickups as standard.
 
bluejeannot said:
Sigmania said:
So this boils down to changing the Fender style headstock and spaghetti logo out of fear of potential action in markets where Fender held some sway legally, assuming Tokai wanted access to those markets.

What I get confused over is that Tokais are not sold in the US. I don’t think they ever were. Every one I’ve bought here in the US was imported.

So why the change?

Also, another member mentioned that the Fender type headstock and spaghetti logo persisted in Europe beyond 1983/84.

Still a head scratcher for me.

Maybe ultimately it was about getting the contract with Fender?
Click to expand...
The Fender headstock shape did persist in Europe up till maybe 88/89 but the spaghetti logo was dropped in 83 in favour of first the block logo and then the the same logo that persists on Goldstars to this day was introduced probably in 83.Interestingly Tokai STs with the slogan "Made in Japan By Rock and Fanatics" adorn both block logo Springys and very early Goldstars. This slogan was dropped very quickly and by 84 changed to "The Quality Musical instruments of the World" I think I prefer the "Rock and Roll Fanatics slogan" :D
Click to expand...




That’s great info. I hadn’t seen that slogan before, “Made in Japan By Rock and Roll Fanatics”. Would be cool to have on a guitar.

The image I’m getting from all of this is Fender trying to use its muscle to grab market share from Tokai in Asia and Tokai wasn’t having it. Sort of David and Goliath.

The headstock change seems to be a move to avoid issues with Fender in the US rather than any specific legal action.

I sure wish Koubayashi was still around. I would love to see page 2…. And the ST70 Goldstar he had with the maple veneer fretboard. 8)
 
bluejeannot said:
https://www.gbase.com/gear/tokai-tst-62-stratocaster-1984-reissue-sunburst As for Tokais on sale in the USA this guitar with its distinctive US only logo and modified headstock shape was certainly available in the US in 83/84.Interestingly the rosewood board model had a slab fingerboard and both maple and rosewood models had E stamped pickups as standard.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I think that’s what Peter Mac was saying the ST70 became?
 
Ok, so here's an interesting bit of info regarding Tokai and the "lawsuit" thing.

The company history timeline on the Japanese-language Wikipedia page for Tokai Gakki contains the following entry, as translated by Google:

"In 1984, Fender filed a lawsuit for manufacturing its own counterfeit products and lost the case. Due to a court order, the sale of musical instruments was suspended and an application for the Corporate Rehabilitation Law was filed."

Bot translations suck, but it could be understood as Fender having sued Tokai and lost, but a court order to suspend sales during the legal process hit Tokai hard enough to force them into reconstruction?

There are no references for this statement, I've never seen it from any English-language source, and it's certainly not mentioned in the official company history,. But it could help explain the sudden relegation of their pure copy models to stamp-sized pics on the last pages of the 1985 catalog (which would have been issued in late '84) and the matter of some obvious Tokai builds under short-lived alternate brands (Grandy, Bradley) during this time.

The Wiki page is here: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9D%B1%E6%B5%B7%E6%A5%BD%E5%99%A8%E8%A3%BD%E9%80%A0. If any Japanese readers would care to double-check the translation I'd be grateful.
 
"In 1984, Fender filed a lawsuit for manufacturing its own counterfeit products and lost the case. Due to a court order, the sale of musical instruments was suspended and an application for the Corporate Rehabilitation Law was filed."

8) this translation is very correct. excellent!

in 1984, fender sued tokai for their fender copy products and tokai lost the case. then tokai became unable to sell their copy products by the court order. tokai then went to bankrupt...
 

Similar threads

Sigmania
1983 Fender Style Serial Numbers
2 3
Replies
55
Views
2K
Sigmania
Sigmania
Sigmania
1982 Fender Style Serial Numbers
3 4 5
Replies
80
Views
3K
Sigmania
Sigmania
Sigmania
March/April 1983 Change To Script Logo And Model Names
Replies
1
Views
237
Sigmania
Sigmania
ATO
List by 1st body code
2 3 4
Replies
76
Views
4K
Sigmania
Sigmania
Sigmania
1983 Goldstars Script Logo
2 3 4
Replies
72
Views
5K
Sigmania
Sigmania

Latest posts

Back
Top